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1 hour ago, ERICOPOLY said:

The thing we can all agree on is that the Democrats are bleeding hearts. They are.  They won't even let the anti-vaxxers suffer in the hospital if they can try to avoid it.  And they will do what is in their power to avoid deaths of others.

What I would love to see is a movement to make the anti-vaxxers pay for their covid-19 bills out of pocket.  The rest of us who pay for insurance through our taxes, premiums, or through our employers are paying the bills when they get sick.  They will at the very least try what is in their power.

Imagine if you were the insurer being forced to pay for idiots who won't get vaccinated.  Their recklessness is your expense.  Seriously, this isn't a matter of their own personal freedoms when it is putting their hospital bills on the rest of us.  And they increase the risk of more dangerous variants emerging in the future which threatens us all.

Theres kind of a look through here especially with the insurance example. The people largely dying from covid are unhealthy. Should we close restaurants until the % of population that needs to get on a treadmill does so? Its a health crisis and diabetes kill plenty of people too. Its about individual responsibility. 

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I definitely think this is the risk. I actually kind of agree with where @musclemans head is at, although perhaps he is trying too hard to get the current data interpretations there. But for sure you

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45 minutes ago, cwericb said:

 

 

The reason why it is not going away is because of idiots who refuse to be vaccinated and wear masks when necessary and cite their ‘freedom’ as their reasoning. Yet their idea of ‘freedom’ inhibits the freedom of everyone else.

They say “No gommerment is going to tell me what to do”.    What a joke.......

You can’t go out and shoot someone just because you don’t like them...
You can’t drive your car at 100 mph down the sidewalk...
You can’t keep a tiger in your back yard...
You can't drive without your seat belt, nor when you are drunk or high...
Why? Because the government says you can’t.

And yet these self centered, arrogant people think it is perfectly fine to refuse to participate in reducing the spread of a virus that is killing thousands of people.

What about the victims freedom to live?

 

No one has banned masks. Anyone who wants to wear one can! You just have no right or business telling others they have to. Even Fauci has been caught saying that snout coverings dont work for normal people because they dont even know how to use them. Absolutely preposterous to compare it to murdering someone or driving a car 100 mph. But then again for the past year and a half you've been blaming individual people for spreading the virus LOL so not really sure theres much else I can say to even address the absurdity of your points. 

 

Folks have CHOICES/FREEDOMS....stay home, go out, get vaxxed, dont get vaxxed, wear a mask, dont! Thats it. The virus, mark my words, IS NOT GOING AWAY ANYTIME SOON, regardless of what we do...Look at Australia and all those places LOL. The sooner you get back to reality and start accepting how things are, the better. And for the states the fucked up, the sooner you stop crippling your economy and everyday, healthy and productive citizen, the better. Again look at the mess in NY. The only criticism, real criticism for FL/TX/etc is why were the hospitals better prepared? Otherwise, shit fine and this is the new reality. Some folks still haven't accepted it or still think shutting down the world until its gone is the only way to go and those folks are idiots. 

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9 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

Theres kind of a look through here especially with the insurance example. The people largely dying from covid are unhealthy. Should we close restaurants until the % of population that needs to get on a treadmill does so? Its a health crisis and diabetes kill plenty of people too. Its about individual responsibility. 

It is about social responsibility.  Same as obeying speed limits.  Left to their own devices, they'll determine 100MPH is a safe speed, or they'll determine vaccines are dumb.

They don't have a right to threaten my life and the lives of others.

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5 minutes ago, ERICOPOLY said:

It is about social responsibility.  Same as obeying speed limits.  Left to their own devices, they'll determine 100MPH is a safe speed, or they'll determine vaccines are dumb.

They don't have a right to threaten my life and the lives of others.

In theory this is great but the world just isnt like that. Republicans suck and Democrats do too. Just in general I find people suck and are unreliable. A few people dont follow along and its all moot. I rather be healthy, get vaccinated, and mind my own business...ultimately responsible for myself and those I have some control over than rely on others doing the right thing. I spent a few years early on working in Manhattan in the financial anus of the world....eat what you kill. If you rely on others you get crushed. Go make your own bed and then dont bitch about laying in it. Applying this same caution to the world is wise and won't leave you flat footed. Want to be an optimist who expects the best of everyone? Good luck. But you're going to be disappointed at best and at worst, at a huge disadvantage. To each their own though. 

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13 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

In theory this is great but the world just isnt like that. Republicans suck and Democrats do too. Just in general I find people suck and are unreliable. A few people dont follow along and its all moot. I rather be healthy, get vaccinated, and mind my own business...ultimately responsible for myself and those I have some control over than rely on others doing the right thing. I spent a few years early on working in Manhattan in the financial anus of the world....eat what you kill. If you rely on others you get crushed. Go make your own bed and then dont bitch about laying in it. Applying this same caution to the world is wise and won't leave you flat footed. Want to be an optimist who expects the best of everyone? Good luck. But you're going to be disappointed at best and at worst, at a huge disadvantage. To each their own though. 

 

A vaccine mandate for the privilege of being around others in public spaces is warranted IMO.  Just like putting your clothes on is mandated.

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Greg, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make.

People who refuse to be vaccinated are putting others at risk. Just like the guy driving 100 mph down the wrong side of the highway. And I would argue that they do not have that right to infect others and put them in danger.

As I defined freedom previously, it is the right to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't interfere with their right to do whatever they want. 

 

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The media propaganda making the unvaccinated the bogeyman is very effective unfortunately. I've had relatives say that people that do not get the vaccine should be refused treatment if they get sick. (I guess we should also refuse treatment to smokers who get lung cancer or people who eat fast food and drink soda all day long and get diabetes...)

In the meantime, there is a strong possibility that mass vaccination actually causes the more infectuous variants that specifically escape the spike protein centered vaccines (immune escape).

The jury is still out IMO. It is possible that vaccinating the high risk groups has made sense, but trying to vaccinate everybody, including perfectly healthy young people, even children, is doing more societal harm than good.

It is not clear at all, so I am surprised by otherwise intelligent people making these absolute statement about the vaccines, when the long term dynamics are unkown.

https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/post/why-do-covid-19-mass-vaccination-campaigns-promote-dominance-of-selective-immune-escape-variants

https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/post/c-19-pandemia-quo-vadis-homo-sapiens

 

 

 

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“(I guess we should also refuse treatment to smokers who get lung cancer or people who eat fast food and drink soda all day long and get diabetes...) “

You seem to overlook the fact that neither diabetes nor lung cancer are highly infectious.

“In the meantime, there is a strong possibility that mass vaccination actually causes the more infectuous variants that specifically escape the spike protein centered vaccines (immune escape).”

It is a stretch to think that the few vaccinated people who contract the disease are more capable of helping the virus mutate as opposed to the millions of unvacinated who are infecting millions of others with the virus.

Vaccines have been well proven in the past. Measles, mumps, smallpox, polio, etc, are mostly are mostly due to vaccines.

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42 minutes ago, cwericb said:

Vaccines have been well proven in the past. Measles, mumps, smallpox, polio, etc, are mostly are mostly due to vaccines.

Vaccines have been well proven in the past. Measles, mumps, smallpox, polio, etc, are mostly history due to vaccines.

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The way I understand it is that these viruses mutate all the time. The world is a big place, and there will always be mutations that are being carried around the globe. The question is not if there are mutations, not even how many mutations (if we knew of all of them we'd run out of letters in the greek alphabet in a day), it is which mutation becomes the dominant strain in a population, and why.

It appears that in general there is a tendency for more contagious, but less lethal mutations to become dominant. Makes sense.

In a population where, say, only 10% of people (the most elderly and at risk groups) are vaxxed, a vaxx resistant virus mutation would lose out against the other run-of the mill, very contagious, but less lethal mutations and not become the dominant strain in the population.

In a population where, say, 80% of people are vaxxed, with a "leaky" vaccine where vaxxed people still can carry on the disease, the vaxx restistant virus has a higher chance of becoming the dominant strain.

That's how I understand the articles.

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5 hours ago, cwericb said:

“(I guess we should also refuse treatment to smokers who get lung cancer or people who eat fast food and drink soda all day long and get diabetes...) “

You seem to overlook the fact that neither diabetes nor lung cancer are highly infectious.

LOL like 65% of the population is overweight or obese....

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This fool is only trying to be popular within his party, politicizing the pandemic as a "parents' rights" issue.  Of course he never objected to the vaccine requirements that public schools require parents to meet for other scourges such as chicken pox, measles, etc...  He is picking and choosing which parents rights to politicize and coronavirus is what sells in his party today.  Look out for his White House run, he is campaigning now.

 

Florida's Governor Says School Leaders' Salary May Be Withheld If They Require Masks

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/09/1026299001/florida-governor-desantis-school-superintendent-salary-masks

 

Edited by ERICOPOLY
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20 hours ago, cwericb said:

“(I guess we should also refuse treatment to smokers who get lung cancer or people who eat fast food and drink soda all day long and get diabetes...) “

You seem to overlook the fact that neither diabetes nor lung cancer are highly infectious.

Ok, so you perceive not getting vaccinated as possibly being a danger to others.

So would you deny treatment to an unvaccinated person getting sick?

Would you deny treatment to someone who crashes their car against a tree while driving recklessly (speeding, weaving in and out of traffic)?

 

 

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Ok so I listened to the podcast of Bret Weinstein with Geert Van den Bossche. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyAovuUxro)

Impossible for me to tell whether his conclusions are all correct or if there are some inaccuracies in his arguments, but it was a great refresher about the complex workings of the immune system, if anything.

Bret is great at explaining and the first minutes just goes over the immune sytstem in general, the role of T-cells, B-cells, etc.

 

 

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4 hours ago, backtothebeach said:

Ok, so you perceive not getting vaccinated as possibly being a danger to others.

So would you deny treatment to an unvaccinated person getting sick?

Would you deny treatment to someone who crashes their car against a tree while driving recklessly (speeding, weaving in and out of traffic)?

 

 

I would impose fines and make it a condition for employment in the public sector or for getting government contracts (similar to how drug testing has been a condition).

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5 hours ago, ERICOPOLY said:

There was a time when Americans were being drafted into duty to fight in Vietnam. 

The country is now calling on you to be vaccinated.  Where are the brave Americans with a sense of duty?

Not sure who you are talking to, but I'm neither American nor unvaccinated. I will defend the right of anyone not to take an unproven vaccine though. Look at this: https://thecobf.com/forum/topic/18996-this-is-the-most-dangerous-time-regarding-covid/, just posted. There is too much we don't know about long-term effects to force it on people, especially the young and healthy.

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IDK but the FL school mask thing seems like just another example of where the media has lied or misrepresented it and folks fall for it. There is no rule in FL where kids cant go to school in masks....

If you want to send your kid to school in a mask, you are able to. However it is none of your business whether your neighbor does the same. IF masks work the way they claim, your kid having one and someone else not having one, means your kid will be fine. But of course thats not enough for folks...they need to tell every other parent how to do things. Even though, again, if we circle back to the "science" every medical person I know, and even Fauci, have acknowledged that for the majority of the population, let alone school kids, masks are useless because people dont utilize them properly. 

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14 hours ago, Gregmal said:

IDK but the FL school mask thing seems like just another example of where the media has lied or misrepresented it and folks fall for it. There is no rule in FL where kids cant go to school in masks....

If you want to send your kid to school in a mask, you are able to. However it is none of your business whether your neighbor does the same. IF masks work the way they claim, your kid having one and someone else not having one, means your kid will be fine. But of course thats not enough for folks...they need to tell every other parent how to do things. Even though, again, if we circle back to the "science" every medical person I know, and even Fauci, have acknowledged that for the majority of the population, let alone school kids, masks are useless because people dont utilize them properly. 

The NPR report claims that the governor of Florida is punishing the school officials for mandating masks.  I don't see any lie or misinterpretation.

Schools also mandate things like the length of shorts that girls are allowed to wear.

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Yea mandating everyone wear them. Theres nothing preventing people from wearing them if they want to. Whats the problem? These teachers unions specifically are such losers. Like look at the ones in NY...they get everything they want and now theyre throwing a tantrum claiming its not safe and that they want remote learning again LOL like yea...I dont want to go to work either....Fuck them. 

In FL or TX, anyone who wants to wear a mask, can. 

And again, I'm vaccinated and my kids will be going to school in a month with masks(because its required and I dont really care either way)...

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On 8/13/2021 at 9:13 AM, Gregmal said:

No one has banned masks. Anyone who wants to wear one can! You just have no right or business telling others they have to. Even Fauci has been caught saying that snout coverings dont work for normal people because they dont even know how to use them. Absolutely preposterous to compare it to murdering someone or driving a car 100 mph. But then again for the past year and a half you've been blaming individual people for spreading the virus LOL so not really sure theres much else I can say to even address the absurdity of your points. 

 

Folks have CHOICES/FREEDOMS....stay home, go out, get vaxxed, dont get vaxxed, wear a mask, dont! Thats it. The virus, mark my words, IS NOT GOING AWAY ANYTIME SOON, regardless of what we do...Look at Australia and all those places LOL. The sooner you get back to reality and start accepting how things are, the better. And for the states the fucked up, the sooner you stop crippling your economy and everyday, healthy and productive citizen, the better. Again look at the mess in NY. The only criticism, real criticism for FL/TX/etc is why were the hospitals better prepared? Otherwise, shit fine and this is the new reality. Some folks still haven't accepted it or still think shutting down the world until its gone is the only way to go and those folks are idiots. 

You have choices and freedoms to a limit:

Why wear a seat belt then?  Why stop at red lights?  Why don't we let parents beat their children?

Why is it when Johnny Weir dresses flamboyantly during the Olympics, he's trolled, but Don Cherry can wear a flamboyant suit on Hockey Night in Canada and fans love it?  Frankly, both should be banned in my opinion!  🙂 

I do agree, the virus is not going away.  Until more people get vaccinated, or some sort natural immunity or benign form of the virus becomes the norm, where it behaves more like the flu, we will see hospitals that cannot provide normal care because they are overwhelmed by the morons who don't want to get vaccinated or don't want to wear masks.  You're seeing it right now in many regional hospitals.  The largest children's hospital in Texas said over the weekend that they only have one bed available for any more child patients!  Cheers!

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My daughter has a 14 yr old female friend from school who's guardians (Aunt/Uncle) are huge Trump supporters.  Her uncle told her that if she gets vaccinated she will be kicked out of the house.  I asked her why her uncle didn't vote Trump out of the White House for getting vaccinated.  Seriously, what's wrong with these morons?

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