Question for Trump Supporters Who Support the Overthrow of the US Government

[Read the Footnotes]

For those of you who support Trump and think that things in the USA are so bad that we should "burn it all down", I am wondering have you considered moving to a different country, and if so, which country do you think "gets it right"?

 

Board members, regardless of political belief, might find the list useful even if just for vacation ideas or research purposes.

 

Thanks.

[Parsad]

For those of you who support Trump and think that things in the USA are so bad that we should "burn it all down", I am wondering have you considered moving to a different country, and if so, which country do you think "gets it right"?

 

Board members, regardless of political belief, might find the list useful even if just for vacation ideas or research purposes.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm guessing North Korea, Russia and Saudi Arabia.  AOC is not well liked in any of those countries.  Cheers!

[rkbabang]

I hate Trump, but think it should be burned down.  If there was someplace better to go I'd have already moved there.  The world is a shithole where every square inch of inhabitable land is controlled by one gang or another, many places in dispute between multiple gangs, and 7 billion people belong to cults which worship them, and make them willing to fight and die for them. The US is the best of a bad lot. It's like being asked to eat the least gross maggot in a bucket of trash, then saying "if you don't like that one, why don't you just eat another one?"

[Read the Footnotes]

For those of you who support Trump and think that things in the USA are so bad that we should "burn it all down", I am wondering have you considered moving to a different country, and if so, which country do you think "gets it right"?

 

Board members, regardless of political belief, might find the list useful even if just for vacation ideas or research purposes.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm guessing North Korea, Russia and Saudi Arabia.  AOC is not well liked in any of those countries.  Cheers!

 

I'm sure there are lovely beaches in each of those countries, but let's try to be constructive and factual in this thread. I think what we have learned from Parsad's post is that is factual is that at least one resident of a liberal western democracy may not be eager to welcome Trump supporters, but we still don't have any suggested countries.

 

Bill Gates has been quoted repeatedly saying that he always likes to ask when confronting a problem:

1) Who does this really well, and

2) What can we learn from them.

 

So back to my question for our Trump supporting friends, what country do you prefer to the USA and why?

 

 

[Read the Footnotes]

I hate Trump, but think it should be burned down.  If there was someplace better to go I'd have already moved there.  The world is a shithole where every square inch of inhabitable land is controlled by one gang or another, many places in dispute between multiple gangs, and 7 billion people belong to cults which worship them, and make them willing to fight and die for them. The US is the best of a bad lot. It's like being asked to eat the least gross maggot in a bucket of trash, then saying "if you don't like that one, why don't you just eat another one?"

Ok, so you, RK, don't like trump, have no place else to go, but you still want to burn the USA down. Not an perspective I had on my radar, thanks. I was hoping that we would hear from Trump supporters, but since it's an interesting perspective, I have two questions in response to your post.

 

How do you see blowing up your best option as being different from an astronaut wanting to blow up his spaceship somewhere between the earth and the moon just because they don't like the decorating?

 

Are their other alternatives you consider?

[JRM]

I don't view myself as a Trump supporter or a 'burn-it-all down' advocate.

 

I guess you could label me as a conspiracy theorist because I believe there is enough credible evidence of election irregularities at a large enough scale to warrant further investigation and discussion.

 

The rebuttal by the democrats is as follows:

 

1.  No evidence

 

Anybody making this statement is either ignorant or lying

 

2.  The courts threw out all cases based on merits

 

Very few cases made it to the 'judgement based on merits' phase.  Many were thrown out (legitimately) due to lack of standing or other technicalities.  In cases where the courts recognized that illegal voters cast ballots, they didn't view it as their job to throw out ballots.  As far as I know, there is no good way to link an illegal voter to a ballot.  How do you know which ballots exactly to throw out?  They want the legislature to sort his out.  I agree that it is not the court's job to decide an election, and that was what they were being asked to do in most cases.

 

3.  Most secure election in US history

 

This is the most laughable.  A large scale cyber attack was underway before, during, and after the election.  CISA was nowhere to be found, yet the (former) CISA director comes out and says this was the most secure election in US history.  He has no credibility at this point.  However, the democrats have been repeating this line ad nauseam.

 

Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley did nothing to incite the mob or condone violence by voicing objections to the election processes in Arizona and Pennsylvania.  Both state legislatures have recognized that their elections had major issues and are still trying to get to the bottom of their issues.

 

My life wasn't better or worse under Bush, Obama, or Trump.  I don't think it matters that much who is president.  I think faith in our elections matters immensely, and more transparency should be welcomed.

[Read the Footnotes]

I don't view myself as a Trump supporter or a 'burn-it-all down' advocate.

 

I guess you could label me as a conspiracy theorist because I believe there is enough credible evidence of election irregularities at a large enough scale to warrant further investigation and discussion.

 

The rebuttal by the democrats is as follows:

 

1.  No evidence

 

Anybody making this statement is either ignorant or lying

 

2.  The courts threw out all cases based on merits

 

Very few cases made it to the 'judgement based on merits' phase.  Many were thrown out (legitimately) due to lack of standing or other technicalities.  In cases where the courts recognized that illegal voters cast ballots, they didn't view it as their job to throw out ballots.  As far as I know, there is no good way to link an illegal voter to a ballot.  How do you know which ballots exactly to throw out?  They want the legislature to sort his out.  I agree that it is not the court's job to decide an election, and that was what they were being asked to do in most cases.

 

3.  Most secure election in US history

 

This is the most laughable.  A large scale cyber attack was underway before, during, and after the election.  CISA was nowhere to be found, yet the (former) CISA director comes out and says this was the most secure election in US history.  He has no credibility at this point.  However, the democrats have been repeating this line ad nauseam.

 

Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley did nothing to incite the mob or condone violence by voicing objections to the election processes in Arizona and Pennsylvania.  Both state legislatures have recognized that their elections had major issues and are still trying to get to the bottom of their issues.

 

My life wasn't better or worse under Bush, Obama, or Trump.  I don't think it matters that much who is president.  I think faith in our elections matters immensely, and more transparency should be welcomed.

 

Interesting. Thanks for your comments, JRM. Seems like your primary issue is with the court cases, so a couple of questions regarding your interpretation of the cases.

 

Were you aware that some of the Republican judges including Trump appointees suggested that Trump's lawyers should be investigated and potentially disbarred because their lawsuits appeared to publicity stunts with no legal standing or basis and that they were an abuse of the court system? That is one potential explanation as to why some cases might have been dismissed so summarily.

 

Here's one interesting and more recent example from just this past Thursday, where Jerome Marcus, Trump's lawyer in the Philadelphia County Board of Elections case, resigned and accused the Trump or possibly the Trump campaign of a crime in bringing the case saying:

 

"the client has used the lawyer's services to perpetrate a crime and the client insists upon taking action that the lawyer considers repugnant"

 

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.paed.577781/gov.uscourts.paed.577781.9.0_1.pdf

 

Since attorney's are officers of the court they have certain obligations and should not take these sorts of issues lightly.

 

JRM, several question for you:

1) Were you aware of Trump appointees accusing abuse of the system and this most recent resignation, and

2) If so, how did you reconcile them with your previous statements?

3) If you weren't aware of these facts, how do you interpret them now that I've brought them to your attention?

4) Is there a country that you, JRM, think does it better than the USA?

[bobozou]

@JRM or others who think believe there is 'evidence of [above average] election irregularities at a large enough scale...'

 

Full disclosure:

1) I haven't come across evidence of this, mainly cause I consume (probably) left-leaning mainstream/tech media... and I don't even know where to begin searching for 'credible' evidence of this to form a more-balanced opinion

2) I'm genuinely interested, NOT in engaging in a debate on this (because I don't know the data intimately), but to evaluate-the-evidence (that those who believe the 'election fraud narrative' find compelling), to form my own opinion on the theory

 

Question:

Are there links (recognizing that they probably won't be 'mainstream') where someone can point me to both the analysis and raw data that suggests 'above average amount of election fraud'?  And to be clear, I think there's probably ALWAYS some base-level of fraud (which varies depending on geographical/historical norms) - but I'd be very appreciative to see the evidence that 'above average fraud happened at national level in 2020'

 

 

[Gregmal]

If revamping government = "burning everything down", I am not quite should one is truly all too concerned with or even appreciative of, democracy. If by burning everything down, there is a reference to something else, I guess I missed it.

 

The issue fundamentally, which is what the majority of Americans take issue with, regardless of where they choose to protest/riot/insurrect, is that the government isnt doing its job. The folks in power are hypocrites and liars and it is a bipartisan issue. The discord is regularly monetized by whatever party it benefits, to rile people up, and motivate folks to do what said politicians want. This shit is then gargled around MSM and regurgitated by snot nosed elitists who live in mansions and get paid extraordinarily well to add little value to the world, IE C-suite type, university professors, journalists, etc. Those people dont care about America, and simply use their virtue signaling for personal benefit.

 

Case in point....you have vaccines ready to go and a shit show system in place....and Trump is whining about his Twitter account, and Nancy Pelosi and friends are pushing for another political show and otherwise waste of time trying to impeach a guy who is going to be out of office in 10 days...

[Rod]

Maybe a Libertarian utopia can be formed somewhere (at sea?) and our Libertarian friends here and elsewhere can live out their dreams of “pure freedom” while the rest of us can get on with our lives in our respective “shit hole” countries.

[Read the Footnotes]

If revamping government = "burning everything down", I am not quite should one is truly all too concerned with or even appreciative of, democracy. If by burning everything down, there is a reference to something else, I guess I missed it.

 

The issue fundamentally, which is what the majority of Americans take issue with, regardless of where they choose to protest/riot/insurrect, is that the government isnt doing its job. The folks in power are hypocrites and liars and it is a bipartisan issue. The discord is regularly monetized by whatever party it benefits, to rile people up, and motivate folks to do what said politicians want. This shit is then gargled around MSM and regurgitated by snot nosed elitists who live in mansions and get paid extraordinarily well to add little value to the world, IE C-suite type, university professors, journalists, etc. Those people dont care about America, and simply use their virtue signaling for personal benefit.

 

Case in point....you have vaccines ready to go and a shit show system in place....and Trump is whining about his Twitter account, and Nancy Pelosi and friends are pushing for another political show and otherwise waste of time trying to impeach a guy who is going to be out of office in 10 days...

You mention vaccines, Israel seems to be inoculating residents at more than 10x the rate of the USA, so Israel seems to be better run on at least one scale of measurement that you bring up provided that the individual Trumpist is not an antivaxer and believes that COVID is not a hoax. If COVID is a hoax, vaccination at such a high rate would surely be a waste of resources. As a multiparty parliamentary democracy, might Israel have other qualties to recommend it to Trumpists?

 

Back to the question at hand do you have a recommendations for countries you prefer to the USA?

[cubsfan]

Maybe a Libertarian utopia can be formed somewhere (at sea?) and our Libertarian friends here and elsewhere can live out their dreams of “pure freedom” while the rest of us can get on with our lives in our respective “shit hole” countries.

 

 

Awesome - they love "shit hole" countries like Haiti, Cuba, Venezuela etc - but I don't see them rushing.

 

Me?  I'm happy to stay here and try and fix the still greatest country in the world.

[Gregmal]

I don't have answers for some of the theoreticals in which you address and I dont pretend to read peoples minds so I'll defer. Although Ive heard Haifa is gorgeous.

[Williams406]

@JRM or others who think believe there is 'evidence of [above average] election irregularities at a large enough scale...'

 

Full disclosure:

1) I haven't come across evidence of this, mainly cause I consume (probably) left-leaning mainstream/tech media... and I don't even know where to begin searching for 'credible' evidence of this to form a more-balanced opinion

2) I'm genuinely interested, NOT in engaging in a debate on this (because I don't know the data intimately), but to evaluate-the-evidence (that those who believe the 'election fraud narrative' find compelling), to form my own opinion on the theory

 

Question:

Are there links (recognizing that they probably won't be 'mainstream') where someone can point me to both the analysis and raw data that suggests 'above average amount of election fraud'?  And to be clear, I think there's probably ALWAYS some base-level of fraud (which varies depending on geographical/historical norms) - but I'd be very appreciative to see the evidence that 'above average fraud happened at national level in 2020'

 

Instead of relying on the losing candidate or independent researchers to "prove" anything, I think a highly auditable and verifiable system should be in place. If my business posts financial statements rather out of line with historical figures, that's a flag and may trigger a tax or regulatory audit. And probably should. If signature verification figures or adjudication numbers spike. It seems like that is worthy of a full forensic audit. If the businesses of citizens are auditable by the state at great penalty, elections probably should have the same standard.

[wachtwoord]

The US has a wonderful constitution written in the 18th century by wise men who learned from the despotic wrongs in Europe. The US strayed so so far from that it's sad. Entropy is a powerful unbeatable force.

 

The only way for those in power to give it up (smaller government) is through revolution. Revolutions suck and are unpredictable. I doubt that's on the table just yet anyway. The decline could continue for decades more first.

[JRM]

ReadTheFootnotes,

 

I'm not getting too hung up on the court cases.  I view it as not their job to fix this.  I haven't reviewed every single case, and I'm not a lawyer anyways.  My opinion doesn't mean much regarding the court cases.

 

I think the US is still the best game in town.  I can't complain.  I've been extremely lucky to be born in this country and have been afforded opportunities that 99% of the people on earth could only dream of.

 

Regarding where to start looking at evidence, I would recommend starting here:

 

Willian Ligon, Georgia Senate Judiciary Committee report: http://www.senatorligon.com/THE_SENATE%20JUDICIARY%20SUBCOMMITTEE_FINAL%20REPORT.PDF

 

Pennsylvania Senate letter to congress (the letter is embedded in this article):

 

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/spl/electoral-college-certification-pennsylvania-senate-letter-20210106.html

[rkbabang]

I hate Trump, but think it should be burned down.  If there was someplace better to go I'd have already moved there.  The world is a shithole where every square inch of inhabitable land is controlled by one gang or another, many places in dispute between multiple gangs, and 7 billion people belong to cults which worship them, and make them willing to fight and die for them. The US is the best of a bad lot. It's like being asked to eat the least gross maggot in a bucket of trash, then saying "if you don't like that one, why don't you just eat another one?"

Ok, so you, RK, don't like trump, have no place else to go, but you still want to burn the USA down. Not an perspective I had on my radar, thanks. I was hoping that we would hear from Trump supporters, but since it's an interesting perspective, I have two questions in response to your post.

 

How do you see blowing up your best option as being different from an astronaut wanting to blow up his spaceship somewhere between the earth and the moon just because they don't like the decorating?

 

Are their other alternatives you consider?

 

When I said "it" I didn't mean "it all" (at least not immediately).  I was talking specifically about the US federal government.  I advocate for continual process of decentralization, getting rid of centralized hierarchical control structures and decentralize power as much as possible.  State is better than federal, county better than state, city better than county, neighborhood better than city, individual household better than neighborhood, individual human being better than household.  I always advocate pushing power down in the direction of the individual. Also voluntary is always better than coercive.  Companies, voluntary organizations and groups are always preferable to government agencies. The US federal empire is the antithesis of what I advocate.  Burn it down.

[JRM]

Also, I think the easiest rebuttal against the voting machine conspiracy theories is to simply perform a hand recount (which was done).  I don't see any point going down that path any further.

[bobozou]

@Williams406

 

(dammit, I think this now officially a 'debate')

 

1) I think default-assumption is always important. My (and I think our society's) default assumption when it comes to election-results is that the official-results are generally reliable;  in cases where that's been in-doubt or too-close-to-call, there have been the appropriate actions taken (ie, Bush-v-Gore and even the recounts at various states in 2020).  In other words, regardless of fairness, should we be operating under default assumption that 'official results are generally-right', and burden of proof is on alternative-theory (ie, 'there was above average fraud')?

 

2) My understanding of 2020 results is that there have been 'above average' level of diligence/audit, on the contested states (ie, didn't Georgia recount their votes more-than-once?  Also, by-hand and by-machine)?  This, combined with the default-assumption above, would seem to generally-be-good-enough, in any election year other than 2020.

 

I'm trying to understand 'what I'm missing'.  Is the concern around 'how mail-in-ballots skew toward Biden, and showed up later than in-person ballots'?  If so, I'm just looking for a more-comprehensive, more-competent (than I can put together) list of such concerns.

[Read the Footnotes]

@JRM or others who think believe there is 'evidence of [above average] election irregularities at a large enough scale...'

 

Full disclosure:

1) I haven't come across evidence of this, mainly cause I consume (probably) left-leaning mainstream/tech media... and I don't even know where to begin searching for 'credible' evidence of this to form a more-balanced opinion

2) I'm genuinely interested, NOT in engaging in a debate on this (because I don't know the data intimately), but to evaluate-the-evidence (that those who believe the 'election fraud narrative' find compelling), to form my own opinion on the theory

 

Question:

Are there links (recognizing that they probably won't be 'mainstream') where someone can point me to both the analysis and raw data that suggests 'above average amount of election fraud'?  And to be clear, I think there's probably ALWAYS some base-level of fraud (which varies depending on geographical/historical norms) - but I'd be very appreciative to see the evidence that 'above average fraud happened at national level in 2020'

Awesome post Bobozou. I really like your self-awareness regarding your own sources, and your interest in analysis.

 

It would be great if JRM or others could post data with analysis so we can broaden our understanding as you suggest.

 

This is not at all what you asked for Bobozou, but some people might want to review the congressional record for that day. My interpretation is that no one made an accusation of wide scale fraud, but their argument was more of a matter of arguing that since so many people believe that the Trump talking points are true, we should make those people feel better by investigating them. That was the argument from those trying to disrupt the counting. The republican argument for counting was basically let's stop this charade and tell the people the truth, that you can't lie to them and then say you have to take an illegal, extra constitutional action because you lied to them.

 

Here's the congressional record for that day, if someone would like to debate that interpretation, please be sure to provide quotes:

 

https://www.congress.gov/117/crec/2021/01/06/CREC-2021-01-06.pdf

[bobozou]

Also, I think the easiest rebuttal against the voting machine conspiracy theories is to simply perform a hand recount (which was done).  I don't see any point going down that path any further.

 

Thank you - should be an interesting starting-point

[JRM]

@JRM or others who think believe there is 'evidence of [above average] election irregularities at a large enough scale...'

 

Full disclosure:

1) I haven't come across evidence of this, mainly cause I consume (probably) left-leaning mainstream/tech media... and I don't even know where to begin searching for 'credible' evidence of this to form a more-balanced opinion

2) I'm genuinely interested, NOT in engaging in a debate on this (because I don't know the data intimately), but to evaluate-the-evidence (that those who believe the 'election fraud narrative' find compelling), to form my own opinion on the theory

 

Question:

Are there links (recognizing that they probably won't be 'mainstream') where someone can point me to both the analysis and raw data that suggests 'above average amount of election fraud'?  And to be clear, I think there's probably ALWAYS some base-level of fraud (which varies depending on geographical/historical norms) - but I'd be very appreciative to see the evidence that 'above average fraud happened at national level in 2020'

Awesome post Bobozou. I really like your self-awareness regarding your own sources, and your interest in analysis.

 

It would be great if JRM or others could post data with analysis so we can broaden our understanding as you suggest.

 

This is not at all what you asked for Bobozou, but some people might want to review the congressional record for that day. My interpretation is that no one made an accusation of wide scale fraud, but their argument was more of a matter of arguing that since so many people believe that the Trump talking points are true, we should make those people feel better by investigating them. That was the argument from those trying to disrupt the counting. The republican argument for counting was basically let's stop this charade and tell the people the truth, that you can't lie to them and then say you have to take an illegal, extra constitutional action because you lied to them.

 

Here's the congressional record for that day, if someone would like to debate that interpretation, please be sure to provide quotes:

 

https://www.congress.gov/117/crec/2021/01/06/CREC-2021-01-06.pdf

 

See my previous post for a couple of links.

[rkbabang]

For those of you who support Trump and think that things in the USA are so bad that we should "burn it all down", I am wondering have you considered moving to a different country, and if so, which country do you think "gets it right"?

 

Board members, regardless of political belief, might find the list useful even if just for vacation ideas or research purposes.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm guessing North Korea, Russia and Saudi Arabia.  AOC is not well liked in any of those countries.  Cheers!

 

There have been many religious sects throughout history that have fervently hated one another yet from the view of an atheist they are far more similar than they are different.  The same with government cults.  Stalin and Hitler hated each other for example.  The fact that Kim Jong-un is not a fan of AOC is meaningless.  From the anarchist point of view they are far more similar than different.

 

[LC]

From the anarchist point of view they are far more similar than different.

 

Too reductionist for my palate. Nihilism is just so boring.  ;D

[bobozou]

@JRM

 

Thanks again for the links - hoping for constructive conversation (debate?) regarding some of the information in the links:

 

The link that I skimmed through was the Georgia-Senate-Subcommittee-Report

 

Let's set aside possible political motivations, and take the report at face-value;  In addition, we'll set-aside issues like 'Georgia, of all places, probably would have investigated possible cheating-that-favored-Biden'.

 

----------------------

 

One of my biggest questions/concerns is actually mentioned in the report-itself; the bottom of p8-p9 speaks to alleged voting-result-disparity (in-favor-of-Biden).  One of the quotes is literally, 100% in favor of one-side, is a statistical unlikelihood/impossibility -  I'm sympathetic to that argument. 

 

But, if I extrapolate that idea to the report-itself (not a specific example cited in the report), isn't the report basically a statistical unlikelihood/impossibility?  What I mean is, every example that I skimmed through (and there were numerous) seemed to be an example in-favor-of-Biden

 

In other words, either 1) truly, after a proper inquiry, all (100%) of evidence seems to suggest that there was 'abnormal cheating in favor of Biden' (ie, there was no evidence of cheating in other direction), OR 2) this was not a reliable unbiased inquiry... ie, this is the equivalent of me-in-excel goalseeking to justify whatever solution the power-that-be-have-already-predetermined.  OR, to use a marital-metaphor, if I was in a bad-mood, and wanted to draw up a subcommittee report where 100% of evidence suggests my spouse is incompetent?  I suspect I could (and maybe I have...)- but would that prove that my spouse was incompetent (or just prove that I'm a hack)?

 

So i guess, I don't see evidence that 'there was discrepancy that favored Biden over Trump', or that 'there was discrepancy above-and-beyond historical norm'

 

Respectfully submitted