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Time To Justify Your Nazi Germany Position


Gregmal
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So it started coming up in the Joe Biden thread. But its time we ask our lefty friends...For all the "Trump is Hitler" talk, how to you reconcile the Democrat's uniform approach to resisting school choice? How in America, should people not have the freedom to choose schools, home school, or seek what they feel is an appropriate avenue for their children to be educated? Across the board, Democrats are against anything having to do with a choice that an individual has regarding eduction? Why?

 

Personally, I think there is only one real reason, and that is because the numbers clearly indicate that the majority of educators are flaming liberals and this is how they intend to indoctrinate our children and brainwash them into being lefty blowhards. But I will wait for a reasonable explanation. Not holding my breath though.

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So it started coming up in the Joe Biden thread. But its time we ask our lefty friends...For all the "Trump is Hitler" talk, how to you reconcile the Democrat's uniform approach to resisting school choice? How in America, should people not have the freedom to choose schools, home school, or seek what they feel is an appropriate avenue for their children to be educated? Across the board, Democrats are against anything having to do with a choice that an individual has regarding eduction? Why?

 

Personally, I think there is only one real reason, and that is because the numbers clearly indicate that the majority of educators are flaming liberals and this is how they intend to indoctrinate our children and brainwash them into being lefty blowhards. But I will wait for a reasonable explanation. Not holding my breath though.

 

Gregmal, I've a lot of respect for you from looking at your logical thinking on the investment threads.

 

So, I was hoping you wouldn't try to treat the two different topics at the same level: (1) the topic of democracy being at risk from a sitting president undermining the legitimacy of elections, and strong independence of judiciary that would have protected it being at risk now and (2) school choices in local jurisdictions.  I respect that you at least started a separate thread about #2, but I feel you're exaggerating #1 with your title about Nazi germany, and unnecessarily linking #1 and #2, which are at different levels of importance.

 

That said, this is the first time I'm hearing that democrats are against #2.  Is Fox news, Trump or someone else creating an unnecessary issue about it that I missed? I'm not sure why this would be a topic for national elections when there are bigger issues at stake.  Local state-level and local school-district-level elections have the freedom to decide whether you want to have choice for schools or not.  My local school district in a liberal area has the freedom to decide, and has chosen that freedom to offer choice, and I like it. Nothing partisan about it.

 

Lets please be intellectual about this, and make sure our politicians don't try to distract the real issues with something like #2.

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There is definitely hyperbole on my part. There has been nothing but constant Trump/Hitler/Castro/or worse comparisons made forever by pundits. So my phrasing of the above was mainly tongue in cheek. Hitler utilized the school and education system to influence the masses and especially the future generations. It is not a secret that Democrats as hugely against school choice. Take a quick, non partisan Google

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&source=hp&ei=v_xmX404p6jK0w-tvLXYDA&q=democrats+against+school+choice&oq=democrats+against+sch&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoFCAAQsQM6CAgAELEDEIMBOgQIABADOgoIABCxAxCDARAKUKUOWIskYJYsaABwAHgAgAE6iAGqB5IBAjIxmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab

 

 

I have only started bumping into this because my children are at the age where I am looking at school options. I live in a reasonably conservative area, but still having had private education, wonder what the harm is and why people are against choice? For instance, I was taking Biology as a 9th grader at private school. In public school this is a 10/11th grade course. Many public high schools are still teaching crap like earth science and geology.

 

Trying to be objective, the only real thread of even a half assed explanation for this position by democrats, is that eliminating school choice lessens reliance on government resources. But even that, to me, is hard to reconcile in terms of why being so against it in a hardline fashion. So despite the tongue in cheek hyperbole, I am asking a legitimate question, and hoping maybe I am missing something, because I can not for the life of me, understand why anyone would take the position that it is said they take.

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There is definitely hyperbole on my part. There has been nothing but constant Trump/Hitler/Castro/or worse comparisons made forever by pundits. So my phrasing of the above was mainly tongue in cheek. Hitler utilized the school and education system to influence the masses and especially the future generations. It is not a secret that Democrats as hugely against school choice. Take a quick, non partisan Google

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&source=hp&ei=v_xmX404p6jK0w-tvLXYDA&q=democrats+against+school+choice&oq=democrats+against+sch&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoFCAAQsQM6CAgAELEDEIMBOgQIABADOgoIABCxAxCDARAKUKUOWIskYJYsaABwAHgAgAE6iAGqB5IBAjIxmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab

 

 

I have only started bumping into this because my children are at the age where I am looking at school options. I live in a reasonably conservative area, but still having had private education, wonder what the harm is and why people are against choice? For instance, I was taking Biology as a 9th grader at private school. In public school this is a 10/11th grade course. Many public high schools are still teaching crap like earth science and geology.

 

Trying to be objective, the only real thread of even a half assed explanation for this position by democrats, is that eliminating school choice lessens reliance on government resources. But even that, to me, is hard to reconcile in terms of why being so against it in a hardline fashion. So despite the tongue in cheek hyperbole, I am asking a legitimate question, and hoping maybe I am missing something, because I can not for the life of me, understand why anyone would take the position that it is said they take.

 

Gregmal, I can understand your worry about being able to choose the school for your kids. I live in a liberal area where public schools are excellent, and we also have publicly-funded charter schools, which are again excellent as well.  We also have excellent private schools.  Folks make different choices for their kids, and I agree we have bigger things to worry about than government getting in the business of taking away choice from parents. 

 

I looked at the first link at the link you shared, that is, from the Cato institute, and I feel it misrepresented some of the things in the linked Medium article from Elizabeth Warren, who by the way is also not a presidential candidate.  So, from that, I wouldn't conclude that "[a]cross the board, Democrats are against anything having to do with a choice that an individual has regarding education."

 

Overall, I like individual choice, small government, low taxes, and free market, but I also like leaders who are empathetic, who don't lie so much, who make accurate statements, believe in science, don't make statements that undermine legitimacy of our democratic institutions, are not a risk to democracy themselves, don't start riots against local governments trying to follow science to contain Covid, model good behavior for citizens to follow, don't think about what is in it for them in everything, don't try to divide the country for their benefit, and try to bring us together around our common goals and values.

 

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Most inner city schools are a complete disaster with low quality of education (Chicago Public Schools).

They have been this way for years and get worse not better.  School choice would be a god send to these communities

for talented students whose parents don't want them to be trapped by the system.

 

Of course, many of these cities are controlled by Democrats largely beholden to teacher's unions who vehemently oppose charter

schools and school choice.

 

The poor bear the brunt of the failed public educational system and the political indoctrination fed to them.

 

 

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Not sure how things work in the US. Our 3 kids are now starting university. We moved four times since our first was born (each time to a different city in Canada). Each move we bought a house in our new city. Before buying our house my wife and i put together a list (about 15 items long) of what we wanted with our new house/area. Each item was ranked in importance. Stuff like ‘4 bedrooms’ and ‘quiet street’. Here, if you live in the local area around the school your kid goes to that school. Pretty simple.

 

‘Good school’ was at the top of the list for EVERY move (after we had kids). We have lived walking distance to every school they have attended. And the quality of education has been very good.

 

In the US if you buy a house down the street from a great school can you kids not attend that school?

 

PS: the last house we bought (11 years ago in Greater Vancouver) was a multiple offer situation (3 bidders). I asked our realtor what she thought it would take to get the house. We went in $10,000 over her number and got the house. Small price to pay to get my family in a great situation. We love where we live :-)

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There is definitely hyperbole on my part. There has been nothing but constant Trump/Hitler/Castro/or worse comparisons made forever by pundits. So my phrasing of the above was mainly tongue in cheek. Hitler utilized the school and education system to influence the masses and especially the future generations. It is not a secret that Democrats as hugely against school choice. Take a quick, non partisan Google

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&source=hp&ei=v_xmX404p6jK0w-tvLXYDA&q=democrats+against+school+choice&oq=democrats+against+sch&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoFCAAQsQM6CAgAELEDEIMBOgQIABADOgoIABCxAxCDARAKUKUOWIskYJYsaABwAHgAgAE6iAGqB5IBAjIxmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab

 

 

I have only started bumping into this because my children are at the age where I am looking at school options. I live in a reasonably conservative area, but still having had private education, wonder what the harm is and why people are against choice? For instance, I was taking Biology as a 9th grader at private school. In public school this is a 10/11th grade course. Many public high schools are still teaching crap like earth science and geology.

 

Trying to be objective, the only real thread of even a half assed explanation for this position by democrats, is that eliminating school choice lessens reliance on government resources. But even that, to me, is hard to reconcile in terms of why being so against it in a hardline fashion. So despite the tongue in cheek hyperbole, I am asking a legitimate question, and hoping maybe I am missing something, because I can not for the life of me, understand why anyone would take the position that it is said they take.

 

I don’t even understand your question. The quality of your school dependS on your school district where you bought your house. If you don’t like the Public school , you either have to move or have your kids go to a private School. Neither Democrats nor Republicans prevent you from doing either one. So what exactly is your problem?

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^ The problem is the poor can not escape the bad schools - the wealthy can easily escape those schools and pay for private schools.

 

The current system of no school choice traps the poor.

 

I thought Gregmal was worried about his own kids. I don’t realize he was worried about poor people kids, at least this wasn’t clear to me.

 

On that end I agree. Some cities have opened all schools within their City limits Too all kids leading to lottery system, but that doesn’t seem to get much love either.

 

The inequality is partly a  consequence funding the schools with local real estate taxes. I grew up in Germany where schools are funded by the state and while inequality is an issue there too with respect to schools, it is way less than in the US (my family wasn’t exactly wealthy). I also think that the very small school districts add an layer of overhead that may not add much value, but I think people here would lynch you if you propose to do away of them and run schools on a county level for example.

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My kids and starting to focus on the education aspect prompted me to start looking into this stuff. So its been there for a while, but just wasn't something I was focusing on. I was particularly disturbed by how anti homeschooling many of them are. How difficult they make it for a parent to do this. For instance:

 

Progressives have been fighting the rights of parents to educate their children at home since the early years of the 20th century. The fight to keep children under government control and within the public school system has not ebbed. The liberal dislike of homeschooling was quite evident in the Romeike case. As previously noted by Off the Grid News, the legal immigrants from Germany were granted asylum in the United States, only to have it yanked away by the Obama administration.

The couple would likely lose custody of their six children if sent back to Germany where homeschooling was ruled illegal by Adolf Hitler (the law has never been changed). Uwe and Hannelore Romeike are a deeply religious couple who want to govern how their children learn and be the primary influence in their lives. The Romeike family, like many Americans, consider religious freedom and the ability to parent extremely important, but Eric Holder and President Obama appear to vehemently disagree.

 

"Even though homeschool success rates continue to soar, many states strictly regulate and dismiss parental requests to leave the public school system. Just 11 states allow parents to homeschool their children without any type of formal notification process. A total of 13 states require parents to simply notify the state of the decision to homeschool before nixing the idea of publication education. All but one of such states is located in the West and in the South.

The majority of states with either moderate or high regulation of homeschooling are along the East Coast. Not surprisingly, the states which place the most hurdles in front of parents are union and Democrat strongholds."

 

........

 

Public funded schools are a somewhat different story, and wealth is not always the answer. Other countries have shown it is possible to have public schools successfully educate.

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^ The problem is the poor can not escape the bad schools - the wealthy can easily escape those schools and pay for private schools.

 

The current system of no school choice traps the poor.

 

Yea, people like us can certainly just move. Or drop $20k per year, per kid, for private school. What about the families with two working parents earning $100k a year? Or the single mom with 3 kids? It really is a bad situation. Especially when you look at how awful many big city schools are.

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My kids and starting to focus on the education aspect prompted me to start looking into this stuff. So its been there for a while, but just wasn't something I was focusing on. I was particularly disturbed by how anti homeschooling many of them are. How difficult they make it for a parent to do this. For instance:

 

Progressives have been fighting the rights of parents to educate their children at home since the early years of the 20th century. The fight to keep children under government control and within the public school system has not ebbed. The liberal dislike of homeschooling was quite evident in the Romeike case. As previously noted by Off the Grid News, the legal immigrants from Germany were granted asylum in the United States, only to have it yanked away by the Obama administration.

The couple would likely lose custody of their six children if sent back to Germany where homeschooling was ruled illegal by Adolf Hitler (the law has never been changed). Uwe and Hannelore Romeike are a deeply religious couple who want to govern how their children learn and be the primary influence in their lives. The Romeike family, like many Americans, consider religious freedom and the ability to parent extremely important, but Eric Holder and President Obama appear to vehemently disagree.

 

"Even though homeschool success rates continue to soar, many states strictly regulate and dismiss parental requests to leave the public school system. Just 11 states allow parents to homeschool their children without any type of formal notification process. A total of 13 states require parents to simply notify the state of the decision to homeschool before nixing the idea of publication education. All but one of such states is located in the West and in the South.

The majority of states with either moderate or high regulation of homeschooling are along the East Coast. Not surprisingly, the states which place the most hurdles in front of parents are union and Democrat strongholds."

 

........

 

Public funded schools are a somewhat different story, and wealth is not always the answer. Other countries have shown it is possible to have public schools successfully educate.

What’s your point? Are you concerned about your right to homeschool here (which differs from state state), or about German expats in the US continuing their homeschooling after returning to Germany.

 

We have lived in 3 states and our son went to school in 3 states so far - it wasn’t that way and just happened.

 

Despite funding, the schools where we lived in CA were quite good. our son went to middle school in LI. Those schools were excellent funded with extensive curriculums (like Jazz music which my son enjoyed). Teacher were extremely well paid and imo highly skilled for the most part, but there were cracks in the social fabric there with drug abuse, bullying. We later learned after moving that a fiend of our son living down the street committed suicidal by shooting himself with his parents gun (divorce, broken home apparently ). It’s Avery sad story but not the schools fault.

 

We currently live in MA in a somewhat rural school district. The teacher are less capable (and paid ) compared to LI teachers, but the school is quite well run (well until VOVID-19 hit). The Social fabric here is way better than in LI and my son enjoys school here, but missed things his Jazz program somewhat. He is now attending high school and pretty happy here.

Long Story, short summary - YMMV. People tend to blame schools a lot, but parents and the kids matter a lot too.

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Progressives have been fighting the rights of parents to educate their children at home since the early years of the 20th century.

 

I'm confused with all the generic statements of blaming progressives for everything, because irony of the situation is that Gregmal is living in a conservative area and doesn't have choice, while I am living in a liberal/democrat area and have lots of choice.

 

In my area, both the state law and school district regulations offer choice.

 

Gregmal, would it be possible to point us to the statutes of the democrat states that ban choice, and statutes of republican states that give choice? Maybe take this up in your local state and school district elections?

 

I am not saying I do not have a choice. I am saying that the position taken by many progressives is hostile towards choice and like much else, there is risk that it slides further that way. I am sure I will always have the resources for get what I want, even if it means moving. What I posted, and asked in the OP, is why, or what justification does one have for supporting the position of "no choice"? What is the rationale behind supporting something like this. Is it strictly because they are pushed by the unions? And it helps that this is how they can indoctrinate future generations? Like what basis does a governor have for saying "no Sally, you cant home school your child"? There is plenty of evidence that progressive liberals are hostile towards educational choice.

 

Personal stuff got me into looking at this, and from there it became an interesting topic on a non personal level...if that helps clarify for those who think this is about me not having a choice.

 

This was probably the most reasonable crack at an explanation Ive seen. Its old. But at least basically says that supposedly its become a way for republicans to undermine public education...but that still seems moot. If it can be undermined...make it better

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/how-school-choice-became-an-explosive-issue/251897/

 

These tactics only work if liberal interest groups take the bait. And to their discredit, they have. When Democrats last took control of Congress, they were pressured by national teachers unions to cut funding for the Opportunity Scholarships, for precisely the same political reasons that led Boehner to support them. So even as President Obama sends his children to private school in the District of Columbia, Democrats were preventing poor black children from doing the same.

 

More broadly, liberal groups stand as the biggest obstacle to the expansion of charter schools, even as minority parents line up for the chance to send their children to charters and the best schools of choice achieve results on behalf of poor children that are unmatched by nearby regular public schools.

 

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It all comes down to a few words: choice, competition, meritocracy, capitalism.

 

Anything else less than that and you are looking at: barriers, abuse, underperformance, corruption.

 

It is amazing to me that we have to teach these things to so called Alpha personalities or investors looking to (I hope) advance their own standard in life.

 

And please don't bring Canada school system and healthcare system is pretty good. What it is it's mediocrity for everyone.

 

Cardboard

 

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It all comes down to a few words: choice, competition, meritocracy, capitalism.

 

Anything else less than that and you are looking at: barriers, abuse, underperformance, corruption.

 

It is amazing to me that we have to teach these things to so called Alpha personalities or investors looking to (I hope) advance their own standard in life.

 

And please don't bring Canada school system and healthcare system is pretty good. What it is it's mediocrity for everyone.

 

Cardboard

 

Cardboard, regarding the education system in Canada, it certainly has its flaws. Here are two examples:

1.) almost impossible to get rid of a bad teacher

2.) universities can have a lower admittance standards for international students than domestic students (international students pay up to 4x the fees so universities want the higher revenue]

 

Despite the flaws, from my perspective the Canadian education model does get a lot right. My 3 kids had a good to great experience at two different elementary schools and at their high school. The high schools now allow kids to start trade programs in grade 12. The elective courses offered are way better than when i was a kid: as an example, their high school offered 20 different computing science programs (programming etc) and they are adding more every year.

 

And now that my kids are at the post secondary stage i am amazed at the number of options available especially compared to when i was a kid. Pretty much everybody has a good post secondary option close enough that you can live at home if you want (and keep costs low). My kids are all getting a good to very good education at one of the larger universities and it will cost a total of about $95,000 each (includes living away from home) over 4 years which is cheap from my perspective. The kids will pay about $25-$30,000 each so my net cost is very reasonable.

 

My daughter was having a debate with her buddy about which university had the best business program. I told them my view was all the top schools were close enough. Decide where you want to live. Then pick a good university. The networking you do is more important than the university (especially for business). Also the coop programs/work experience is more important to landing a great job then the school you attended.

 

So to weave it all together, my view is kids today have the best opportunity to get a great education of any generation in Canadian history. Of course, those kids with strong parent support are in the drivers seat. Because the most important education comes from the parents anyways.

 

PS: I was explaining to my kids how hard it was to learn something when i was in high school. For me there was basically one option: go to the library and check out a book. Or sometimes there might be a family member who could teach something. Pretty limited. Fast forward to today and there are unlimited options to learn anything you want... it is all on the internet. Youtube is an amazing resource. All three of my kids are using Covid as an opportunity to build out their cooking skill. It is amazing what they have been cooking from scratch. Pretty cool.

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Question for you . . .

If the Trump organization . . . paid a private organization . . . to put on their uniform and go "police" the USPS mail in system or to barge their way in and police the polling places, you think these people in their brown coats would be totally normal and legit?

 

" . . . morally acceptable" or "a viable option at the moment" . . .

Ok. It seems you are only saying it's a "viable option at the moment", for Trump to have a private army of brown coats to patrol election venues? Have I understood your nuanced response correctly?

 

Private army of browncoats is probably sensationalized and hyperbole. But what Trump can do, will largely dictate what he will do, given the win at all cost strategy. I would wager that even if its not a paid militia guarding certain polling stations, as the left is yearning for so they can tell their next story, it will most likely be encouragement of MAGA crazies surrounding polling stations...which regardless of whether he wins or losses, will be the basis for claims of "people saw rampant voter fraud" allegations.

 

So if we want to get hung up on exact interpretations, literal or general idea of specific words....I'd just leave it as "this is something that Trump views as a "viable option", yes".

Ok, so Trump considers using the brown coats a viable option.

 

Thanks for engaging in a respectful discussion and explaining your thoughts.

 

Time to justify your support of the use of brownshirts? Or time to justify your support of a candidate that you believe would believe it's a viable option to use brownshirts?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

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Enforcing laws is now = "brownshirts"... ok then.

 

This is just one of the many ways the left is undermining law and order and handing Trump the election, again.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_States)

Over a recent 14-year period, there were only 31 documented cases of voter impersonation. Not the millions that some people claim. So what are they trying to achieve? Hint, it has nothing to do with enforcing laws.

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Enforcing laws is now = "brownshirts"... ok then.

 

This is just one of the many ways the left is undermining law and order and handing Trump the election, again.

 

OH! So now it is the Left's fault that Trump got elected and could be re elected. Nothing to do with all those good folks who think Trump is the greatest gift to democracy. sheesh. 

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Enforcing laws is now = "brownshirts"... ok then.

 

This is just one of the many ways the left is undermining law and order and handing Trump the election, again.

 

OH! So now it is the Left's fault that Trump got elected and could be re elected. Nothing to do with all those good folks who think Trump is the greatest gift to democracy. sheesh.

 

It actually is the left's fault. They've gotten too crazy. I don't want to vote for Trump but I certainly plan to this year. It's the less severe option.

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