George Floyd

[valueinvestor]

I'm not going to pretend that this ties into value investing and finance, but I think it's important to be said - I keep my politics private for most of my life, and I feel like a hypocrite writing about this now, when this happened countless times and even sick as an entrepreneur and investor growing the value of my business and portfolio's value amidst such a humanitarian crisis. However, I feel as if it's my duty because today's legislation does not seem to be voted by the ballot, but rather the dollar. Which is why, I'll accumulate and deplete that dollar as much as I can, so I can exert my views and encourage everyone to do the same, so they can push their views, so we can end up with a world view that's diverse. If you think accumulating capital shouldn't be one's duty, well you're right and wrong. Since you're certainly also have a luxury that many others and I cannot afford. In a just world I would've been a physicist, but in this world I have people that I know and don't know, who I do not want to go through what I went through especially before social media.

 

With Myanmar, Amy Cooper, Ahmad Albury, Syria, General Abuse against Minorities and Women, and I hate to say this but the infinite injustices this world seems to carry today - it kills me. Even more, the ignorance of many people with these issues, and the inherent ignorance of those who are aware because they are being hidden between the lines... specifically the whole issue when you don't follow the news, you're uninformed, and when you follow the news, you're misinformed.

 

However with George Floyd, the video of a cop calmly taking away a man's life on video, where he's probably fully aware that he's being recorded and not caring because he had 17 internal affairs investigations - says it all. When Amy Cooper called the police because she knew by the time they figured out who's right and who's wrong, the police would most likely hurt him in someway because he's black makes makes me angry because I've seen it so many times. By the way, this anger that I feel in my bones is not new, but something many others and I had for almost our entire lives. Since everyone knew this issue is true, but mostly pretended that it was not a large enough issue or justified it by saying it's better than it was 100 years ago. F*ck - it's better now? Sorry, I should keep quiet about the millions, and perhaps billions that face injustice today. As a human being, I do not understand how even if the number goes down to one person a year, it's cause to celebrate.

 

Before it TL;DR, I'll end it with this - don't do what I did where I shared my views only when great injustices occurred, but rather use your views and power to educate those who are unaware and don't know why racism and/or any form of discrimination should be tolerated. Since let's face - many tolerate discrimination even though they do not agree with it because they want to keep that customer, supplier, be in the good graces of that professor, boss, or anyone with authority, because it affects their future - and I'm not blaming them and very sympathetic but as long-term oriented individuals - imagine if that's your own partner, children, relative, or any loved one in that predicament. I don't know about you but I rather take the short term hit, so long term the future is brighter, and do my part.

 

I hope this provides a deep understanding of those who do not understand the public outrage of what people of minority go through everyday, and frankly I've had it with the constant objection that tries to distract many from the real issue - which is "what good comes from looting, rioting or having violent protest?" - again it shows lack of awareness on the issue.

 

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"

 

I hope this post is an eye-opener and does some good, and if it doesn't - doesn't matter - because I already was trying more than most, and this all I have more to offer. Hopefully in my lifetime, these issues will be eliminated in my lifetime such as the issues of slavery, at the very least, I'm going to try.

 

EDIT: If you have a different pov, please do not be afraid to share - I want us to have a discussion. I'm not going to attack you - I will make an effort to understand your point, and hopefully arrive to a mutual agreement.

[LC]

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3095217

 

Growing controversy surrounds the impact of labor unions on law enforcement behavior. Critics argue that unions impede organizational reform and insulate officers from discipline for misconduct. Yet collective bargaining tends to increase wages, which could improve officer behavior. We provide quasi-experimental empirical evidence on the effects of collective bargaining rights on violent incidents of misconduct. Our empirical strategy exploits a 2003 Florida Supreme Court decision (Williams), which conferred collective bargaining rights on sheriffs’ deputies, resulting in a substantial increase in unionization among these officers. Using a Florida state administrative database of “moral character” violations reported by local agencies between 1996 and 2015, we implement a difference-in-difference approach in which police departments (which were unaffected by Williams) serve as a control group for sheriffs’ offices (SOs). Our estimates imply that collective bargaining rights led to a substantial increase in violent incidents of misconduct among SOs, relative to police departments. The effect of collective bargaining rights is concentrated among SOs that subsequently adopted collective bargaining agreements, and the timing of the adoption of these agreements is associated with increases in violent misconduct. There is also some evidence consistent with a “bargaining in the shadow” effect among SOs that did not unionize.

 

 

[LongHaul]

This was a great quote by RFK when MLK was killed.

 

Acknowledging the audience's emotions, Kennedy referred to his own grief at the murder of Martin Luther King and, quoting a passage from the play Agamemnon (in translation), said: "My favorite poet was Aeschylus. And he once wrote: 'Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.' What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness; but is love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or whether they be black ... Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world." The quotation from Aeschylus was later inscribed on a memorial at the gravesite of Robert Kennedy following his own assassination.[48][better source needed]

 

The actual speech is on youtube.

 

I liked your post.  It is hard not to get emotional about some great injustices over time if you care about human lives and justice. 

 

Think about the Injustices of Genocides - Armenian, Jewish, Rwanda, etc.  Then there was Stalin killing ~20 million people in Russia or Mao's stupid policies.  Or today in North Korea.  We are violent species - it is in our DNA.  But that is what helped humans survive - being pugnacious.    I am not making excuses for injustices - just citing a reality of man.

 

The great news is that things are very slowly getting better - decade by decade.  Not perfect - they never will be.  But there are many less injustices today then 200+ years ago. 

 

I don't have many answers - but I think it is everyone's moral duty to try to see the truth and reality as it is.

 

I like the old Stoic virtues - Wisdom, Temperance, Justice and Courage

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DTEJD1997]

hey all:

 

I'm refraining from posting a lot of stuff these days...

 

Here in Detroit, we have a long history of riots.

 

When the riots hit in 1967, it damaged/destroyed a lot of the city.  In fact, there are huge swaths of the city that NEVER came back.  You can still see damage that was done in 1967.  Those riots caused/started untold billions and billions in damage.  It ruined/damaged millions of lives.  It's effects go across generations.

 

I wasn't alive when the last big riot happened, but I grew up hearing stories of from my elders.  It had a terrible effect on everybody who went through it, rich, poor, white, black, everybody.  What was gained?  What was lost?

 

While the physical damage was tremendous, the worst thing was the mental/social damage that took place.  Literally millions of people left the city of Detroit, never to come back.  Those people took their knowledge, capital, business with them when they left. 

 

For those who don't think rioting is all that bad, can you imagine being a shop owner who loses everything they've worked for in one night?  Insurance typically does not pay out for riots/civil disturbance.  You lose everything.  Do you think that shop owner is going to be sympathetic to BLM or police brutality, or minority interests?

 

Do you think that shop owner is going to put their capital at risk after the riots subside?  Are they going to re-open and put their labor and capital at risk in that community?

 

What about respect for the rule of law? 

 

What about the possibility for another Covid-19 outbreak?  Here in Michigan, they media went absolutely bezerk when "right wing" protestors showed up in Lansing.  They were going to undo the weeks of lock down, the virus was going to spread.  Now there are "left wing" protestors and not a peep about Covid-19?  Why is that?  Is the virus "woke"?  It only spreads at "right wing" protests?  Why isn't the media concerned about that?

 

I hope other cities don't have to go through what Detroit went through.

[jamesmadison]

The OP asked for another perspective, so here it is with some actual facts and statistics per the WSJ.  Do with them what you may:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

 

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

 

 

[jamesmadison]

 

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"

 

 

This reminds me of the advice I was given that when you see someone say something with a "but" in the middle, ignore everything that comes before the "but".  And that I find truly offensive.  There is NO justification for the looting and violence that's occurred.  None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.  Beyond being incredibly damaging to the cause, it fundamentally frays society in incalculable ways.  Making any excuse to "burn it all down" is not acceptable.

[Cigarbutt]

hey all:

...

I hope other cities don't have to go through what Detroit went through.

Why did Detroit go through what Detroit went through?

Any insights in proximate causes?

Disclosure: A long time ago, i thought that the Kerner Commission Report contained a lot of ingredients to improve the secret sauce.

I would offer the opinion that what is unfolding is not inevitable but it may require to take the perspective of a kid growing up in a poor and segregated community.

[Viking]

Great article on the slow education of Drew Brees: his initial comment, the backlash and then his response. I think this is what is called a ‘teachable moment’ for Brees. Perhaps for others too :-)

 

Drew Brees Still Hasn't Learned

- https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/06/04/drew-brees-american-flag-kneeling-comments-colin-kaepernick

 

...Four years, and Brees apparently learned nothing. That is why he faced minimal backlash four years ago and got excoriated this week. He still claimed they are being “disrespectful” instead of understanding why they feel disrespected.

 

To his credit, Brees apologized Thursday: “I made comments that were insensitive and completely missed the mark on the issues we are facing right now as a country,” he wrote on Instagram. “They lacked awareness and any type of compassion or empathy.” Now Brees, one of the smartest quarterbacks in the league, can examine why he said what he did this week.

 

If Brees had listened with an open mind for the last four years, he would have seen that his American experience is not everyone’s. He would have realized that making anthem protests about respect for the military is just a scaled-down, philosophical version of using troops to clear out peaceful protesters. It is another way to tell people to shut up and admire the USA.

 

You can’t tell a group of historically oppressed people that you understand how they feel, but they have to say it on your terms. That means you don’t really understand. It means you don’t care enough. Why should Black Americans have to pause and salute Drew Brees’s grandfathers before talking about how their own relatives have been treated? Why is his family’s history more important than theirs?

 

Drew Brees doesn’t get to call that play. He did not seem to realize how condescending and offensive it is for a white person to tell Black people, “Hey, let’s all stand up and show unity here.”

[Parsad]

I'll play devil's advocate, even though you guys know that I'm a fiscal conservative but a rabid social liberal!  I'll lay out some points as Gregmal and Cubsfan have a few more days of COBF quarantine.

 

- How long does it take until reparations are enough?  My own great-great-great grandparents were indentured labourers brought over from India...pretty much with no choice!

- I mean you now have an America which already had a black president. 

- 50 years ago, would anyone have listened to Oprah the way that they do today? 

- Other than a few southern counties, mixed marriages are completely acceptable and legal. 

- The U.S. is the land of opportunity, what is stopping people from pulling themselves out of poverty?  Don't most immigrant populations feel enormous racism or bigotry when they get here?  Even the Irish were considered a repulsive group by native born Americans before the civil war.  What about the Italian immigrants who lived in ghettos in New York after the civil war.

- Have reparations ever changed the long-term outlook or success of oppressed minorities?

- I can understand making an initial statement with rioting and looting, but really, do we believe the people looting these days are actual protestors?

- Malcolm X was once asked by a woman, "What can I do to help your cause?"  His response was "Nothing!"  Do we really believe anything will change?  We've barely made a dent in gun laws in the U.S., do we really think we can talk and march away racism or police brutality?

- George Floyd, Ahmed Aubrey, etc are the few exceptions, but usually the police have to deal with violent criminals and force is necessary.  Just like a white person hasn't walked in a black person's shoes, very few people have walked in a police officer's shoes.  Every day, their lives are at risk...how can they protect themselves without using force or corrective techniques in an adrenalin-filled fight with a culprit?

 

Cheers!  I'm sure I'll come up with more reasons as you guys answer these questions.

[Spekulatius]

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

 

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

[Parsad]

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

 

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

 

Yes!  I mean they weren't even put on modified duty last week, but have now been charged and the judge has set bail at $750K.  While they are all guilty, I feel a bit sorry for the cop who was directing away spectators and wasn't actually involved.  He should be charged with something, but manslaughter or murder?  Whether anyone admits it or not, there is a blue shield code where you protect your own and you don't side with others.  He was just trying to control the environment and would never have thought one of his own was killing Floyd.  Again, not making an excuse for him...but he wasn't the one on Floyd.  Cheers!

[valueinvestor]

 

I'm NOT encouraging violence, in fact I CONDEMN it - but ask yourself this - "what good comes from not looting, rioting or having violent protest, especially being marginalized by society for so long like George Floyd and countless others?"

 

 

This reminds me of the advice I was given that when you see someone say something with a "but" in the middle, ignore everything that comes before the "but".  And that I find truly offensive.  There is NO justification for the looting and violence that's occurred.  None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.  Beyond being incredibly damaging to the cause, it fundamentally frays society in incalculable ways.  Making any excuse to "burn it all down" is not acceptable.

 

So what if you're offended? Although I'm happy you had an explanation because most people say I'm offended to not acknowledge the core issue or their outright refusal to see reality.

 

I wasn't giving advice, or at least it's not my intent - if anyone I know is going to riot, and hell if anyone I don't know - I'm going to do my part to stop/persuade them.

 

In order to solve the problem, we need to see why they are rioting. Even if the statistic is true, which I find suspect at best, it doesn't solve the problem. Since people do not remember what you did for them, they only remember how you made them feel. We CAN'T simply say - there's no excuses for the behaviour... duh... there's no excuse, but just because it's not an excuse, doesn't mean there's no reason.

 

I was simply saying what other option do they have against a perceived tyrannical institution? Imagine if this wasn't the US, and you're in another country where you're constantly marginalized... what would you do, if you can't leave?

 

What about respect for the rule of law? 

 

What if the rule of law doesn't respect you - Chauvin (the cop who had his neck on George Floyd) had 18 internal affairs investigations against him according to the police department (even if it is half true - that's ridiculous). Imagine if it was a Black Cop or any coloured minority, do you think they would have the same treatment? It may not be a race thing, but maybe Chauvin has a long history in the town and has strings to pull, which is why he is a repeat offender.

 

but I think it is everyone's moral duty to try to see the truth and reality as it is.

 

I like the old Stoic virtues - Wisdom, Temperance, Justice and Courage

 

+1.

 

 

You can’t tell a group of historically oppressed people that you understand how they feel, but they have to say it on your terms. That means you don’t really understand. It means you don’t care enough. Why should Black Americans have to pause and salute Drew Brees’s grandfathers before talking about how their own relatives have been treated? Why is his family’s history more important than theirs?

 

Drew Brees doesn’t get to call that play. He did not seem to realize how condescending and offensive it is for a white person to tell Black people, “Hey, let’s all stand up and show unity here.”

 

+1

 

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

 

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

 

Yes!  I mean they weren't even put on modified duty last week, but have now been charged and the judge has set bail at $750K.  While they are all guilty, I feel a bit sorry for the cop who was directing away spectators and wasn't actually involved.  He should be charged with something, but manslaughter or murder?  Whether anyone admits it or not, there is a blue shield code where you protect your own and you don't side with others.  He was just trying to control the environment and would never have thought one of his own was killing Floyd.  Again, not making an excuse for him...but he wasn't the one on Floyd.  Cheers!

 

This is the problem, and sadly one I faced too. All I ask is that again they get a fair trial, but seeing what's happening, it may not happen. Sometimes rulings are not based on the merit of the case, which again causes the problem. Hence, the discussion because it involves them.

 

I'll play devil's advocate, even though you guys know that I'm a fiscal conservative but a rabid social liberal!  I'll lay out some points as Gregmal and Cubsfan have a few more days of COBF quarantine.

 

- How long does it take until reparations are enough?  My own great-great-great grandparents were indentured labourers brought over from India...pretty much with no choice!

- I mean you now have an America which already had a black president. 

- 50 years ago, would anyone have listened to Oprah the way that they do today? 

- Other than a few southern counties, mixed marriages are completely acceptable and legal. 

- The U.S. is the land of opportunity, what is stopping people from pulling themselves out of poverty?  Don't most immigrant populations feel enormous racism or bigotry when they get here?  Even the Irish were considered a repulsive group by native born Americans before the civil war.  What about the Italian immigrants who lived in ghettos in New York after the civil war.

- Have reparations ever changed the long-term outlook or success of oppressed minorities?

- I can understand making an initial statement with rioting and looting, but really, do we believe the people looting these days are actual protestors?

- Malcolm X was once asked by a woman, "What can I do to help your cause?"  His response was "Nothing!"  Do we really believe anything will change?  We've barely made a dent in gun laws in the U.S., do we really think we can talk and march away racism or police brutality?

- George Floyd, Ahmed Aubrey, etc are the few exceptions, but usually the police have to deal with violent criminals and force is necessary.  Just like a white person hasn't walked in a black person's shoes, very few people have walked in a police officer's shoes.  Every day, their lives are at risk...how can they protect themselves without using force or corrective techniques in an adrenalin-filled fight with a culprit?

 

Cheers!  I'm sure I'll come up with more reasons as you guys answer these questions.

 

To be clear, my answer is not a reflection of your character or views (or anyone's for that matter, especially if you're trying to be devil's advocate) - I'm simply driving the discussion forward, and hopefully, we gain insights together. However, this list of objections is something we always hear and I touched upon during my initial "remarks." Just because it happened before, why is it right now? Just because it happens to cops, again why is it right for their treatment of "alleged" criminals.

 

Secondly, do you really believe police officers have it worse? I believe they should be paid higher, for that amount of crap they experience, and the majority of officers are good and trying their best. However unfortunately you can't have bad cops, just like you can't have bad surgeons.

 

Thirdly, when someone says don't lives of cops matter? Of course, but I think they already do matter. When a person is shot, you may see a couple of officers at most, but when a COP is shot, you see the whole town turn into Alcatraz. It's something that I've seen when growing up in a less than savoury neighbourhood - although I don't have evidence for this occurring now, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the case. So yes, All Lives Matter, but there's a reason why many are opting to post, like, share Black Lives Matter because it again covers the cop lives matter issue, covers the real issue at hand, which oddly enough, if fixed will fix the "cop lives matter" issue.

 

 

The OP asked for another perspective, so here it is with some actual facts and statistics per the WSJ.  Do with them what you may:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

 

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

 

 

Also going back to JamesMadison post with the statistics on more unarmed white people were shot, than black people and presenting as proof is ridiculous. I don't think James was presenting as such, as he said do what you will with the statistic. However, if it was true, how would Amy Cooper know that calling the cops, describing an "African American" man, not just a man - would present as a threat to Christian Cooper (the person who she's calling the cops on).

 

I'm not saying we should provide preferential treatment, or equality of outcome, but rather equality of opportunity. People should have a fair trial, should have a fair shot at a job, fair shot at gaining entrace to a university (not have it taken away with bribes - lori loughlin), but sadly it's not the case. AND... Frankly considering it's 2020, we have no excuse. What excuse do we have to have this be a part of society other than tolerance, and lack of action.

 

Going back to old adage - “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good individuals to do nothing.”

 

This post is to urge anyone and everyone to do their part or at the very least be aware of the entire issue - not just one side's.

[Read the Footnotes]

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

 

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

I am worried about all four. They looks guilty now and people I respect who are far more knowledgeable than me regarding policing are condemning them, but I'm sure that Richard Jewel looked really guilty at some point too.

 

It would be best if people could trust the judicial system. Of course, under Trump and Bill Barr there is possibly less reason to trust the judicial system on an issue like this than at any time in the last 60 years.

[LC]

I'm more concerned that all over the country we are seeing police departments being exposed as abusive, corrupt entities.

 

Here are 20 LAPD "officers" (THUGS) shooting nonlethal rounds directly at a homeless, disabled man's face:

 

 

“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

 

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

 

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot."

 

Recall the countless photos and videos available from the last week of police brutality.

 

Police departments are being exposed nationwide. This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.

[cwericb]

“Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial?”

 

YES.

 

Before judging them, first you have to have some understanding of a para-military organization. Essentially, you do as you are told.

Take a closer look at the situation.

 

Derek Chauvin was a 19 year veteran and the senior officer - by far.

 

Alexander Kueng was only on his THIRD SHIFT as a police officer and Chauvin was his training officer.

 

Thomas Lane had been on the police force for only FOUR DAYS.

 

Tou Thao, simply stood near the other officers as they restrained Floyd and kept the crowd back.

 

In a military or para-military force you are not in a position where you question a senior officers decisions.

So are they any more guilty than the spectators who witnessed the situation? Should the person who took the video be charged? Of course not.

 

Now these three have been fired and will have their lives turned upside down through little fault of their own. They seem to be victims as well.

As a police chief friend said to me once, "There is very little justice in the justice system."

 

I am certainly not out to defend the police forces and their actions. In general I find they are way, way too militaristic. However I don't think we should lynch these three guys just because they were there. For the most part there was little difference between them and the spectators.

[LC]

They should be held accountable. Otherwise it perpetuates the militaristic attitude that you complain of. POs should fear the consequences of abdicating their individual responsibility to “protect and serve”.

[cwericb]

I realize that many would like to make an example of these guys, but it is a bit of a stretch to charge guys with aiding and abetting second-degree murder, when they have only been on the force for a couple of days and took little or no active part in strangling Floyd. Why not charge the spectators too?.

[LC]

Are you seriously asking why spectators would be hesitant to jump on a PO who is mid-arrest and killing someone?

 

First, it’s illegal to interfere with an arrest. Second, there’s a wave of police brutality sweeping the nation.

 

Imagine what any of those 3 cops would have done if someone dove on Chauvin. The spectator be lucky to escape the situation alive.

 

Fellow cops on the other hand are empowered physically, legally, and morally to manage these situations.

 

[Read the Footnotes]

I'm more concerned that all over the country we are seeing police departments being exposed as abusive, corrupt entities.

 

Here are 20 LAPD "officers" (THUGS) shooting nonlethal rounds directly at a homeless, disabled man's face:

 

 

“As I was being arrested for my second day in a row during peaceful protests in support of Black Lives Matter, I decided to continue taking photos until the moment right before handcuffs were put on me. Very risky, but a necessary move to expose LAPD's entirely inexcusable use of aggressive force, especially in the moments before mass arrests of peaceful protestors.

 

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

 

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot."

 

Recall the countless photos and videos available from the last week of police brutality.

 

Police departments are being exposed nationwide. This is not "a few bad apples". And it's beyond even racism. It is corruption and brutality. It is proof that police departments nationwide systematically abuse their power when given the opportunity.

I am not surprised.

 

The language of Trump is dehumanizing. When you dehumanize someone, it becomes much easier to commit atrocities against them.

 

Trump has been working hard to build allegiance with law enforcement organizations around the county. Some members of police are not that bright (average or below only by design in many cases https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836), many feel maligned by the left, and then they have Trump filling their heads with propaganda. Add to that that many of them may feel protestors are putting their lives at risk through Coronavirus and we have a very dangerous situation that the President seems to be enjoying.

 

At the same time, the radical left has been dehumanizing cops, and we see an increase in attacks on cops, which just makes the situation worse.

 

Here's a summary of the situation:

-Some cops are dangerous, or unfit for duty and should be fired or prosecuted.

-Police wield enormous power and should be held to a higher standard.

-In all organizations there is the temptation to cover up for your coworkers or to feel allegiance to those on your team.

-The solutions are not that simple or they likely would have already been implemented.

-Some easy improvements likely have not been implemented due to a resistance to change.

-Terrible leadership at many levels is making all of this worse.

-There are actors on the left, on the right and foreign actors who want to make this worse through violence and social media disinformation.

 

[cwericb]

"Are you seriously asking why spectators would be hesitant to jump on a PO who is mid-arrest and killing someone?"

 

No. I am simply trying to point out that a guy who has been on the police force for four days or three shifts is not really in a position to jump on his senior officer and drag him off the guy being arrested. Because he did not do that, he is being charged with aiding and abetting second degree murder. You just do not do that in a military organization. Do I think the police are too militaristic? Absolutely. Do I think that needs to be changed. Of course.

[LC]

Yea but you’re having it both ways. You claim police should be held to a higher standard but then add conditions to that.

 

What if Chauvin was the one fresh out of academy? Would that be ok since he was still green?

[rb]

Anyone concerned that the 3 cops involved in the alleged murder of George Floyd, don’t get a fair trial? Because I am. Again, I look at this from a perspective of looking at safety incidence that I am used to look at in an industrial setting. While there often is an Component of individual fault, the focus in those of investigations is always on the process that allows these “accidents” to happen to begin with and try to prevent them in the future.

 

Going after individuals is counterproductive in most cases and leads to cover ups. This of course is a different setting , but the fact alone that exactly the same grip was used in the same department 44 times lets me believe that looking at this from an safety incident perspective may be productive and there is likely an institutional component of blame here that should be investigated.

Not really. In fact I would be surprised if even Chauvin does any serious time. Remember Baltimore?

[LC]

Apologies for the caps in title:

 

POLICE OFFICER TELLS PROUD BOYS TO HIDE INSIDE BUILDING BECAUSE THEY'RE ABOUT TO TEAR GAS PROTESTERS. THE OFFICER SAID HE WAS WARNING THEM "DISCREETLY" BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT PROTESTERS TO SEE POLICE "PLAY FAVORITES."

 

 

 

[Read the Footnotes]

Apologies for the caps in title:

 

POLICE OFFICER TELLS PROUD BOYS TO HIDE INSIDE BUILDING BECAUSE THEY'RE ABOUT TO TEAR GAS PROTESTERS. THE OFFICER SAID HE WAS WARNING THEM "DISCREETLY" BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT PROTESTERS TO SEE POLICE "PLAY FAVORITES."

 

You have to admit it would be a great two-faced de-escalation tactic to go say the same thing to both sides. I have no idea what was going on here, but I have essentially seen that done before. As nutty and hateful as some people on both sides might be, faking a bit of solidarity might be a good option for getting everyone to go home without violence.

 

I've heard mediators say they have to walk a line between making someone believe that they are on their side and sympathetic to their interests and making everyone believe that they are fair and impartial. If it were me an the other side were armed, I'd probably try to find a respectful tone instead of pulling some Donald Trump style insults. You'll notice the big brave Trump never does that to people's face. In person he is generally flattering, complementary or deferential.

[LC]

RTF - I sincerely hope you're right as it would mean the police are attempting to de-escalate these situations from becoming even worse. My concern is that "even worse" here means "even worse than the police themselves beating/tear gassing protesters".

 

At this point the police depts have very little credibility and they need to earn any credibility back. Hopefully as you say this was one of their attempts to do so.