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The President, bribery, and Ukraine


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Guest Schwab711

More of a placeholder thread until we know more, but it looks like Trump and multiple representatives of Trump's White House approached the Ukrainian President with a proposal where Ukraine restarts the investigation in to Joe Biden, his son, and various associates of them in exchange for foreign aide ($250m related to Crimea - it's been approved, it needs to be released/spent).

 

Joe Biden's alleged misdealings:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/joe-biden-ukraine-controversy.html - High-level primer

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us/politics/biden-son-ukraine.html - More in-depth issues surrounding Biden

 

Trump's alleged quid pro quo:

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-impeachment-ukraine-whistleblower-intelligence-giuliani-zelensky-1460327

https://theweek.com/articles/866525/brief-timeline-trump-whistleblower-saga

 

*Within these links are further links for both ends of the issue

 

 

 

Timeline of Events:

May 10: Rudy Giuliani, Trump's lawyer, calls off a trip to Ukraine one day after saying he would be "meddling in an investigation" and giving Ukraine's new government "reasons why they shouldn't stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client." He lobbies Ukraine via back-channels over the summer.

 

July 25: Trump and Zelensky talk on the phone, and Trump, according to Ukraine's readout of the call, signaled Ukraine should "complete investigation of corruption cases, which inhibited the interaction between Ukraine and the USA."

Reported Aug. 9:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/dan-coats-disrupted-meeting-to-urge-sue-gordon-to-resign-report

 

Aug. 28: Politico reports that Trump has frozen $250 million in Ukraine security aid and Congress doesn't know why.

 

Sept. 1: Vice President Mike Pence meets with Zelensky in Poland. He's asked about Biden and the frozen funds the next day.

 

Sept. 10: Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) writes Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire to ask about the whistleblower complaint.

 

Sept. 11: The White House releases military aid to Ukraine with no explanation.

 

Sept. 19: Ukraine is reported to be a focus of the whistleblower's complaint. Giuliani goes on CNN and says he pressed Ukraine's government to investigate Biden. Then he suggests on Twitter that Trump should push Ukraine to investigate Biden. (https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/462277-giuliani-says-of-course-he-asked-ukraine-to-look-into-biden-seconds)

 

 

An Old Review on Bribery/Impeachment, re:Constitution:

https://www.justsecurity.org/41124/impeachment-clause-types-bribery/

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Guest Schwab711

If no one knows the whistleblowers identity, how could they possibly knows they are partisan? Why do GOP leaders ignore that a Trump appointee agreed it was serious? Why did GOP leaders lie saying the whistleblower could tell Congress?

 

Why can't we hear the whistleblower and decide the seriousness ourselves?

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republicans-parrot-trump-in-calling-whistleblower-highly-partisan

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I can't help but marvel at the irony of this and wonder if it is all just one big joke the puppet masters are playing on us normal folks...The idea that the left is outraged and calling for impeachment over a....politically motivated investigation? Obama's administration launched an investigation into Trump/Russia and now Trump is trying to do the same with Biden/Ukraine...and the reactions to both were sooooooo different it's startling. Honestly the only difference is Obama wasting the time and resources of OUR agencies, whereas at least Trump is getting someone else to do it.

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Why can't we hear the whistleblower and decide the seriousness ourselves?

This is one of my problems with this current administration - why do they refuse to share information with Congress? Why do they refuse to comply with subpoenas? If "obstruction of justice" has a meaning, this has got to be it.

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Trump appointed the Inspector General that says it is serious. Neither Trump nor the GOP ever complained about the guy before this specific complaint. Weird how they always become partisan/Deep State when they aren't blindly supporting Dear Leader. Trump's DOJ is reportedly already investigating Giuliani on the broader topic of his trips to Ukraine. Trump and his personal lawyer both said if they did what was alleged in the complaint, it would be fine. Giuliani already said he spoke to the Ukrainian president about "corruption" and US aide.

 

Everyone supporting Trump keeps repeating the phrase 'partisan' without merit. It sounds like a cult, tbh. All that's left to determine is what specifically did Trump say on the call. There are transcripts. That's what he's ultimately trying to block. It's likely he said what was alleged because Trump already said it would be fine if he did say what was alleged.

 

I love it, but if the shoe was on the other foot I probably wouldn’t be happy either.

 

What's the point of complaining about politics if you happily admit to being the problem? You're better than this.

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I can't help but marvel at the irony of this and wonder if it is all just one big joke the puppet masters are playing on us normal folks...The idea that the left is outraged and calling for impeachment over a....politically motivated investigation? Obama's administration launched an investigation into Trump/Russia and now Trump is trying to do the same with Biden/Ukraine...and the reactions to both were sooooooo different it's startling. Honestly the only difference is Obama wasting the time and resources of OUR agencies, whereas at least Trump is getting someone else to do it.

 

The difference between Trump/Russia is there was significant suspicion that a crime had occured (which it did likely did in the form of obstruction but not the real point), as among other things Trump went on National TV and asked the Russians to dig up dirt on Clinton.  If there were a case against Biden, the US department of Justice would be investigating, but my guess is this is even a bridge too far for Trump's DOJ, so he has to get a foreign power to investigate.

The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act also covers individuals and not just businesses as its typically used in CoBF. 

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They treat worthless partisan pieces of shit like the worthless partisan pieces of shit that they are. I love it, but if the shoe was on the other foot I probably wouldn’t be happy either. What do you think republicans felt like during Obama term 1?

 

Partisan or not, I'm still waiting to see Trump's taxes!  But we'll never see them like most things from this administration...this won't be any different.  And yes, I'm cynically resigned to that fact, but sitting on the other side of the fence from Trump's supporters.  Cheers!

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It’s banana republic politics plain and simple. I have the sneaking suspicion that Trump doesn’t even know he breaks laws, he probably had lawyers cleaning up his mess all his live and thinks the laws are for those who don’t have good lawyers. I don’t think he is alone with this attitude either.

 

By the way, the whole affair looks bad for Biden too, who has a lot of explaining to do what kind of business his son is pursuing  in the Ukraine and why it is totally unrelated to his political ambitions. Could ( or should ) be the end of his run as a candidate for the Dems if not convincingly explained.

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US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

 

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

 

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)

2) banishing women rights

3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)

4) clinging to power at any cost

5) fostering hatred towards minorities

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Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are the ones fostering hatred towards anyone with money.

 

Short-term capital gains tax in CA is 54% (40.8% Federal + 13.3% state), on top of which we pay big property taxes to the state and also sales taxes of 9%.

 

The two demagogues want to write off student and medical debt by raising taxes even more, instead of figuring out how to lower education/healthcare costs.

 

The two crooks spread hatred against people who have a little bit of money. Both these crooks write books and make millions.

 

 

US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

 

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

 

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)

2) banishing women rights

3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)

4) clinging to power at any cost

5) fostering hatred towards minorities

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US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

 

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

 

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)

2) banishing women rights

3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)

4) clinging to power at any cost

5) fostering hatred towards minorities

 

LOL you are seriously comparing women's right in Iran(where they are basically property and can be killed simply for dressing the wrong way or using social media) to America because you feel some of these hoe's should be able to pound whatever protruding objects they feel like and then slaughter the byproduct of that with the moral indifference of say, hitting the backspace button on a computer? Too funny.

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US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

 

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

 

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)

2) banishing women rights

3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)

4) clinging to power at any cost

5) fostering hatred towards minorities

 

Please list these rights that women don't have.

 

 

Here are a few current things in the news...

 

- Colorado just made it legal for women from the age of 10+ to go topless in public. Is that a victory?

- Young women out earn men. Pay gap?

- Women aren't marrying as much because they see a lack of "economically attractive men"

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2010/09/01/young-single-women-outearn-men

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/colorado-city-removes-topless-ban-in-win-for-free-the-nipple-movement

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/unmarried-women-lack-economically-attractive-men-study

 

 

________________________________________________

 

To get back on topic. I agree Spek, this investigation could very well be the end of Biden. The question is who becomes the new face of the party? Warren or Sanders? Do either of them have a chance against Trump? Perhaps Warren but I don't see a chance in hell that Bernie wins.

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US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

 

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

 

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)

2) banishing women rights

3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)

4) clinging to power at any cost

5) fostering hatred towards minorities

 

It's a fair comparison. Obviously some items are more extreme in Iran but the fact that some Republicans are going down that same path is of course concerning.

 

Women are fighting tooth and nail for equality (we're getting close to allowing women to go topless in all 50 states! to use castanza's example) and there is (in general) progress being made on that front.

 

What concerns me is corruption (on both sides of the aisle). Gerrymandering and voter suppression is, somehow, still a common tactic here in 2019. And Trump's corruption is legendary (at least in how blatant it is) but he is not the only one, as sketchy Democrats and Republics use their elected positions to line their pockets. IMHO more effort needs to be directed here.

 

You're right on the minority/immigrant item - we see how far this administration is willing to go in order to drum up hate. Some of it is pretty much evil (separating children and parent); some of it is actually hilarious:

 

https://i.redd.it/1kqolgb177o31.jpg

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US democracy - it was good while it lasted.

 

I see lots of similarities between Iranian mullahs and Republicans.

 

1) fundamentalist view of religion that trumps everything else (feels like R attended christian madrasa)

2) banishing women rights

3) weakening democracy (voter suppression, gerrymandering)

4) clinging to power at any cost

5) fostering hatred towards minorities

 

It's a fair comparison. Obviously some items are more extreme in Iran but the fact that some Republicans are going down that same path is of course concerning.

 

Women are fighting tooth and nail for equality (we're getting close to allowing women to go topless in all 50 states! to use castanza's example) and there is (in general) progress being made on that front.

 

What concerns me is corruption (on both sides of the aisle). Gerrymandering and voter suppression is, somehow, still a common tactic here in 2019. And Trump's corruption is legendary (at least in how blatant it is) but he is not the only one, as sketchy Democrats and Republics use their elected positions to line their pockets. IMHO more effort needs to be directed here.

 

You're right on the minority/immigrant item - we see how far this administration is willing to go in order to drum up hate. Some of it is pretty much evil (separating children and parent); some of it is actually hilarious:

 

https://i.redd.it/1kqolgb177o31.jpg

 

"It's a fair comparison. Obviously some items are more extreme in Iran but the fact that some Republicans are going down that same path is of course concerning."

 

You and your cohorts should really stop watching shows like "The Handmaids Tale" and projecting it onto reality. Republicans are heading down that road? Really? Which party is it that has a group of individuals who are outspoken Muslims and seem to have trouble denouncing things like sharia law and female genitalia mutilation.

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Republicans are heading down that road? Really?

Yes really. I know it's easy to turn a blind eye to the issues that were just listed: gerrymandering, reproductive/women's rights, treatment of minority groups; but these are real failings of the republican party.

 

I tried to extend the olive branch because its true - democrats engage in poor behavior as well.

 

But your reply makes it quite obvious: in the republican party, these issues are systemic.

 

On the contrary, how many current Senators are Muslim? How many Representatives?

 

And why do you imply there is something wrong about being Muslim?

 

And on the "trouble denouncing things like sharia law and female genitalia mutilation." point, now you're just wrong. Do I need to post the Omar video again?

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Republicans are heading down that road? Really?

Yes really. I know it's easy to turn a blind eye to the issues that were just listed: gerrymandering, reproductive/women's rights, treatment of minority groups; but these are real failings of the republican party.

 

I tried to extend the olive branch because its true - democrats engage in poor behavior as well.

 

But your reply makes it quite obvious: in the republican party, these issues are systemic.

 

On the contrary, how many current Senators are Muslim? How many Representatives?

 

And why do you imply there is something wrong about being Muslim?

 

And on the "trouble denouncing things like sharia law and female genitalia mutilation." point, now you're just wrong. Do I need to post the Omar video again?

 

1.) I'm not republican

 

2.) Are you not implying the Muslim religion is also bad if you think its wrong that republicans are headed down the same path?

 

3.) You're equating the illegal immigrant issue with all minorities. How about you look back at history and see which part supported what and then come to me saying the republicans are the racist party. Democratic party supported slavery, fought women's suffrage, put 10s of thousands of Asians in concentration camps,

supported Jim Crow, supported segregation, supported mass resistance through the Byrd Organization, and who gave birth to the KKK.

 

4.) You see reproductive rights, I see unborn child's rights. Not the same argument.

 

5.) Please post the entitled smart ass video of Omar again for all to see. I'm still waiting for her to get caught in her marriage fraud.

 

_________________________

 

Last one as we are off topic...apologies

 

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Boy, oh, boy - Biden looks like he is in deep shit when the facts come out on the Ukrainian "pay for play" deal.

 

Democrats should have kept their mouth shut on Trump and his phone call - cause now the focus is moving to

Biden and his threat to withhold $1B payment to the Ukrainian government, unless they fire the Ukrainian federal

prosecutor that was investigating Hunter Biden and his role in Burisma.

 

Biden is going to have to fold.

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Guest Schwab711

Boy, oh, boy - Biden looks like he is in deep shit when the facts come out on the Ukrainian "pay for play" deal.

 

Democrats should have kept their mouth shut on Trump and his phone call - cause now the focus is moving to

Biden and his threat to withhold $1B payment to the Ukrainian government, unless they fire the Ukrainian federal

prosecutor that was investigating Hunter Biden and his role in Burisma.

 

Biden is going to have to fold.

 

He said $1b but just about every thing else you wrote is wrong or sensationalized. Investigation was not about Hunter. The concern is that Hunter was paid to consult/manage for an oligarch (Zlochevsky), who many thought should be investigated. The Ukrainian prosecutor truly was extorting subjects of investigations. That doesnt mean Zlochevsky wasn't engaging in money laundering or that Hunter Biden wasn't using his influence, but that wasn't the issue Biden was directly involved in.

 

Biden isn't getting charged. Trump won't be charged with anything related to this incident either. It's not about any crime. I don't think Biden should have been involved given the appearance of a COI. There's no way to avoid an allegations because of it. In this case, there's not much evidence to support it over 4 years.

 

You see why admitting to quid pro quo as the chief decision maker is different than being 2 steps removed from potential government abuse while not directly benefiting or being the ultimate decision maker in the situation is different, right?

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