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Another Case of Racial Profiling


Gregmal
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Really Greg!  You're smarter than this. 

 

No one said only minorities are pulled over by police or held at gunpoint, but that the number of stops on a per capita basis is inordinately high for minorities than it is for Caucasians. 

 

Stop wasting posts!  Cheers! 

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How do you know it is inordinately high, versus logical based on crime rates?  Seems not only presumptuous to assume race but slanderous to those in uniform.

 

Maybe the sample size is too small for both studies:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

 

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

 

Cheers!

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I wonder whether police strategies make it an unavoidable statistic.  For example, if an alien policeman came down from space and wanted to conduct searches of vehicles most likely to be involved in a crime, the alien may consciously decide to conduct those searches in high-crime areas under the notion that cars in high-crime areas are more likely to be involved in a crime (statistically speaking).  It looks like a reasonable approach with an anti-crime bias.

 

In order to conduct those searches, the alien would need to come up with an excuse to make a traffic stop.  However the demographics of those neighborhoods would disproportionally target blacks.  So does the anti-crime bias look to others like an anti-black bias?

 

 

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^Criminal profiling is the name of the game and increasing resources, vigilance and even spontaneous interventions could make sense in high-crime areas. Disturbing findings though are described when higher traffic arrest for violations (proportional) remain higher in low-crime areas, suggesting more than a simple anti-crime bias. While it has been reported that a high proportion of those apprehended for a minor offense and contesting using the racial profile discourse were found to be effectively involved in more serious crimes (up to 50%), I'm not sure this meets the fairness criteria that would be set forth in an ideal judiciary system.

 

The previous post reminded me of the story of Sacco and Vanzetti. In the 1920s, they were arrested, tried and sent to the electric chair. This case is still unresolved in a way but may be relevant food for thought for those interested in how racial or other similar-minded profiling may permeate the process. It appears that many people felt it was OK to arrest and to condemn them even if the evidence was often contradictory, if there was possible inappropriate interference with the judiciary process and if the evidence did not reach the burden of proof for a criminal case because it was felt by many that it was statistically likely that they had committed the crime for which they were arrested. Also, it was felt by many that, even if they were not guilty for that specific crime, they were likely guilty of other crimes and so deserved the death sentence. It seems at least that Justice, while guided by the anti-crime bias, was not fair and dispassionate even if the end conclusion may have been right. Slippery slope. I've never been arrested but I would bet it's more than a simple inconvenience.

 

There are many books and articles about Sacco and Vanzetti and here's a short summary if anybody is interested:

https://www.thoughtco.com/sacco-vanzetti-4148194

Also Mr. Bill Bryson does an excellent and succint job in a chapter of One Summer: America 1927

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How do you know it is inordinately high, versus logical based on crime rates?  Seems not only presumptuous to assume race but slanderous to those in uniform.

 

Good question. My guess? Because the year is 2019 and he is capable of performing a simple google search. ;D

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=police%20stops%20per%20race

 

I think you missed my point.  Minorities being pulled over more than whites versus the relative population percentage is not necessarily evidence of racism.  It is an oversimplification.  The proper comparison is not ethnic percentage of drivers, it is the relative ethnicity of traffic violators including fix it violations.  Also need to know if the officer even determined the race of the driver before the stop.

For example, minorities get arrested for jaywalking more than whites.  Is it racism or due to other factors?  While racism may explain a small portion, it is largely due to other factors.  We do not do society a favor by claiming racism when it is not necessarily racism.  It is harmful and shameful, and when we are wrong it is slanderous.  Obviously there is still racism and it should be called out for what it is.  While we have further to go, we have actually been making significant progress in the last few generations.     

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How do you know it is inordinately high, versus logical based on crime rates?  Seems not only presumptuous to assume race but slanderous to those in uniform.

 

Good question. My guess? Because the year is 2019 and he is capable of performing a simple google search. ;D

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=police%20stops%20per%20race

 

I think you missed my point.  Minorities being pulled over more than whites versus the relative population percentage is not necessarily evidence of racism.  It is an oversimplification.  The proper comparison is not ethnic percentage of drivers, it is the relative ethnicity of traffic violators including fix it violations.  Also need to know if the officer even determined the race of the driver before the stop.

For example, minorities get arrested for jaywalking more than whites.  Is it racism or due to other factors?  While racism may explain a small portion, it is largely due to other factors.  We do not do society a favor by claiming racism when it is not necessarily racism.  It is harmful and shameful, and when we are wrong it is slanderous.  Obviously there is still racism and it should be called out for what it is.  While we have further to go, we have actually been making significant progress in the last few generations.   

 

This is a fair point however legitimate studies will specifically adjust for geographic crime rates and other factors. For example:

 

A "veil of darkness" test was done to analyze whether black drivers are being pulled over at a higher rate during the day than at night, when officers would have a harder time distinguishing race from a distance. After adjusting for the variation in sunset times across the year, researchers found a 5 to 10 percent drop in the share of stopped drivers after sunset who are black, suggesting black drivers are being racially profiled during the day.
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Really Greg!  You're smarter than this. 

 

No one said only minorities are pulled over by police or held at gunpoint, but that the number of stops on a per capita basis is inordinately high for minorities than it is for Caucasians. 

 

Stop wasting posts!  Cheers!

 

I'm not sure whether the data is there for the US, but, would you have a problem with a higher number of stops on a per capita basis if it can be statistically shown that people of certain backgrounds are more likely to be offenders?

 

Personally, I'm fine with racial profiling as long as it's not based on prejudice discrimination. Cops profile all the time based on their experience and intuition and check those that are most likely to be offending (e.g. old lady or agressive looking male). They can't check everyone! (short of becoming a police state)

 

What I see here is most of the times someone complains in the media to be only checked because of racial profiling, they were in fact caught with something illegal, making the police officer correct in his decision to pull that person over! (this last example is anecdotal evidence by nature though)

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"Why did you pull me over?" Because your race has a higher probability of committing crimes

 

"Why didn't you give me a loan?" Because your race has a higher probability of default

 

:-\

 

Cops profile all the time based on their experience and intuition and check those that are most likely to be offending

...

What I see here is most of the times someone complains in the media to be only checked because of racial profiling, they were in fact caught with something illegal, making the police officer correct in his decision to pull that person over!

And their experience and intuition is most likely wrong. For example:

 

In a study of 20MM police stops in North Carolina (which was the first state to require this data be collected), white people had a higher probability of being caught with illegal contraband at traffic stops (36%) than black (33%) or hispanic (22%) people, yet had the lowest probability of being stopped in the first place by police.

 

Now, this is a complex topic. Here is an analysis you may find interesting:

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

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"Why did you pull me over?" Because your race has a higher probability of committing crimes

 

"Why didn't you give me a loan?" Because your race has a higher probability of default

 

:-\

 

Cops profile all the time based on their experience and intuition and check those that are most likely to be offending

...

What I see here is most of the times someone complains in the media to be only checked because of racial profiling, they were in fact caught with something illegal, making the police officer correct in his decision to pull that person over!

And their experience and intuition is most likely wrong. For example:

 

In a study of 20MM police stops in North Carolina (which was the first state to require this data be collected), white people had a higher probability of being caught with illegal contraband at traffic stops (36%) than black (33%) or hispanic (22%) people, yet had the lowest probability of being stopped in the first place by police.

 

Now, this is a complex topic. Here is an analysis you may find interesting:

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

 

Would you care to bring up the statistics on % of violent crime broken down by race?

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And their experience and intuition is most likely wrong. For example:

 

In a study of 20MM police stops in North Carolina (which was the first state to require this data be collected), white people had a higher probability of being caught with illegal contraband at traffic stops (36%) than black (33%) or hispanic (22%) people, yet had the lowest probability of being stopped in the first place by police.

 

Now, this is a complex topic. Here is an analysis you may find interesting:

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

 

What you cite doesn't prove your point.  In fact it partly proves the opposite.  The police stops were due to violations.  Thus the statistics show that violations are not the same by race, unless you believe that officers are intentionally seeing that the violator is white and purposely letting them go, which is possible, but you have not presented evidence for that.  The violation rate appears to be much lower for whites in the study.

 

It is totally separate to analyze searches and success rates on those searches.  Blacks were searched at much higher rates yet still had nearly the same rate of finding contraband.  Why?  Is that bias, or officers being smart since their success rate was consistent?  Logically bias would result in a lower success rate.  There is insufficient data to know if each race was just as likely to have contraband.   

 

Another point I would make is I can't find any corroboration for your statistic.  I looked at some of the data and the probability of whites being caught with contraband were lower in the two groups I looked at (Highway Patrol and Raleigh).  I didn't look at others and couldn't find a summary of all the data anywhere.   

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Now, this is a complex topic. Here is an analysis you may find interesting:

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

 

From the site:

Becker proposed looking at search outcomes. If officers don’t discriminate, he argued, they should find contraband — like illegal drugs or weapons — on searched minorities at the same rate as on searched whites.

 

Seem reasonable.

 

In our data, the success rate of searches (or the hit rate) is generally lower for Hispanic drivers compared to whites; so the outcome test indicates Hispanics face discrimination. For black drivers, search hit rates are typically in line with those of white drivers, indicating an absence of discrimination.

 

So they basically found no bias against black. So what did they do?

 

Becker’s outcome test is a compelling measure of discrimination. But it’s also an imperfect barometer of bias....To address the shortcomings of the outcome test, we built on Becker’s ideas to develop a more robust statistical measure of discrimination: the threshold test

 

They invented a more complicated test and got the answer they were searching for in the first place. To me this study demonstrates more about the bias of the researchers than it does about racial bias. A researcher can keep doing this forever. They can slice and dice the data, reject portions of it, conduct increasingly complicated tests and basically find an answer that they like.

 

I regard all these statistical analysis as basically complete junk and I don't really think anyone...even professional statisticians like this guy:

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/

have any clue as to how to make statistical arguments reliably or intelligently. The real thing people are trying to do is derive casual arguments from statistics. But statistics are just associations. To make a casual argument requires a casual model and then subsequently a careful testing of the casual model.

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  • 1 month later...

Really Greg!  You're smarter than this. 

 

No one said only minorities are pulled over by police or held at gunpoint, but that the number of stops on a per capita basis is inordinately high for minorities than it is for Caucasians. 

 

Stop wasting posts!  Cheers!

Kind of resurrecting an old topic, but here goes

 

This shows what the worst police are capable of:

 

 

Police arrive at accident scene to find barely conscious driver who just suffered a stroke. Instead of helping him they taser him in the face, pepper spray him, then run over his foot while he's laying on the road because he, "refuses to follow commands." due to being physically unable to move.

 

Driver skin color? You guessed it.

Cop's first words to the barely conscious man: "Get out the car or I'm going to fucking smoke you"

 

It's very easy to see why such strong feelings exist against the police.

 

I mean, how is it that you can tazer someone, pepper spray them in the face for 15 continuous seconds, scream at them to get out of the car, and then expect them to be physically able to comply with your orders? It's nonsense and it's seemingly the standard operating procedure.

 

 

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"I mean, how is it that you can tazer someone, pepper spray them in the face for 15 continuous seconds, scream at them to get out of the car, and then expect them to be physically able to comply with your orders? It's nonsense and it's seemingly the standard operating procedure."

 

Demonizing all police officers because of a few idiots. Seriously?

 

Cardboard

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A few? Spend an hour on youtube watching police brutality videos. Spend another hour googling police violence statistics.

 

The reality is there is widely inconsistent behavior within law enforcement because these organizations do not have strong cultures, and where procedures are designed, they are bastardized. Take for example the 21-foot rule, which was morphed into justification to use lethal force vs. anyone holding a sharp edge within a 21-ft radius of an officer.

 

Look at horror stories of prison enforcement. Or look at CBP of which I just posted this quote about border patrol agents behavior:

 

Chandler said "there is no one process" to carry out the policy, leaving agents to coerce migrant parents by whatever means possible to take their children away.

 

You argue it's a few bad apples engaging in this behavior. I argue it's a weak organizational culture which does not prevent this behavior.

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There’s is all kind of profiling going on, not just racial. My first car was a used Ford Probe ( POS ) in the US and I was getting pulled over way more than in my Hyundai, despite driving pretty much the same.

 

Also drivers in “ricer racers” with wings, mods and tinted glass pretty much get pulled over at much higher rates anywhere I lived so far.

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A few? Spend an hour on youtube watching police brutality videos. Spend another hour googling police violence statistics.

 

The reality is there is widely inconsistent behavior within law enforcement because these organizations do not have strong cultures, and where procedures are designed, they are bastardized. Take for example the 21-foot rule, which was morphed into justification to use lethal force vs. anyone holding a sharp edge within a 21-ft radius of an officer.

 

Look at horror stories of prison enforcement. Or look at CBP of which I just posted this quote about border patrol agents behavior:

 

Chandler said "there is no one process" to carry out the policy, leaving agents to coerce migrant parents by whatever means possible to take their children away.

 

You argue it's a few bad apples engaging in this behavior. I argue it's a weak organizational culture which does not prevent this behavior.

 

LOL. The internet is a wonderful place. Spend enough time searching for just about anything, and you'll likely find plenty of it.

 

My kid was watching videos of dinosaurs on Youtube. Living, breathing, dinosaurs! Look on Youtube! They're real, I swear! Jesus..."go look on the internet" is proof that there are documented instances of police brutality. Sure. But hardly representative of anything else. Let alone culture prevalent nationwide....Many times, these savages bring it on themselves. You see the video of the Staten Island shootout where a career criminal thug shot a cop and the hooligans on the street are screaming "die!"? Or concerned about the well being of the criminal? Follow the law and your odds on these encounters significantly decreases. That is not to say there won't be instances or that there arent bad cops like those two scumbags in NY who raped an 18 year old girl...but its hardly as prevalent as LC and his lefty brethren go around pretending.

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Really Greg!  You're smarter than this. 

 

No one said only minorities are pulled over by police or held at gunpoint, but that the number of stops on a per capita basis is inordinately high for minorities than it is for Caucasians. 

 

Stop wasting posts!  Cheers!

Kind of resurrecting an old topic, but here goes

 

This shows what the worst police are capable of:

 

 

Police arrive at accident scene to find barely conscious driver who just suffered a stroke. Instead of helping him they taser him in the face, pepper spray him, then run over his foot while he's laying on the road because he, "refuses to follow commands." due to being physically unable to move.

 

Driver skin color? You guessed it.

Cop's first words to the barely conscious man: "Get out the car or I'm going to fucking smoke you"

 

It's very easy to see why such strong feelings exist against the police.

 

I mean, how is it that you can tazer someone, pepper spray them in the face for 15 continuous seconds, scream at them to get out of the car, and then expect them to be physically able to comply with your orders? It's nonsense and it's seemingly the standard operating procedure.

 

Going by your summary with respect to what transpired and the conclusiveness of the evidence: Give the 'officers' in question super high punishments (death, life with no parole). That will diminish this happening again. Of course only do this with insanely conclusive evidence (not just some people testifying).

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Many times, these savages bring it on themselves

And I'm sure you hate when those savages move into the cave next to yours  ::)

 

And you want to remove guns from law abiding citizens  ;D

Just imagine if this guy had a gun resting in a visible location. No doubt this cop would have "smoked him".

 

Here are some other questionable interactions:

 

 

 

 

Going by your summary with respect to what transpired and the conclusiveness of the evidence: Give the 'officers' in question super high punishments (death, life with no parole). That will diminish this happening again. Of course only do this with insanely conclusive evidence (not just some people testifying).

Mandatory body cameras, actual police accountability (shot an unconscious guy in the face? take a paid 2 week vacation to think it over)

 

Ultimately I agree with you (maybe not on the severity of punishment, but definitely on some actual consequences other than unpaid leave). Police somehow are held to a lower standard than the rest of us, however it should be the opposite.

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Many times, these savages bring it on themselves

And I'm sure you hate when those savages move into the cave next to yours  ::)

 

 

Damn right I would. I live in one of the safest towns in the country. Not by accident. So I'd absolutely hate it if habitual offenders, criminals, vagrants, and dopers started taking over.

 

In desirable places, people have respect for the police. However these criminals have this mentality for a reason. When you are little and play cops and robbers, there's two teams and they are on opposite sides. Its the same thing in real life when you are an adult. If you break the law, of course you will view cops as your enemy!

 

The left has successfully manipulated these folks into helping slant this narrative though. Another way to shift responsibility in exchange for votes. Make police the enemy. You didn't have a problem with the law because you broke it!!! NO! Its because them cops are bad guys out to get you!!!

 

You didn't have your children taken away the same as any American citizen would if they put them in a precarious situation!!! NO! Its because them border agents and ICE officials are racists!!

 

I swear its really hard to believe that as a country these are really issues...

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Many times, these savages bring it on themselves

And I'm sure you hate when those savages move into the cave next to yours  ::)

 

And you want to remove guns from law abiding citizens  ;D

Just imagine if this guy had a gun resting in a visible location. No doubt this cop would have "smoked him".

 

Here are some other questionable interactions:

 

 

 

 

Going by your summary with respect to what transpired and the conclusiveness of the evidence: Give the 'officers' in question super high punishments (death, life with no parole). That will diminish this happening again. Of course only do this with insanely conclusive evidence (not just some people testifying).

Mandatory body cameras, actual police accountability (shot an unconscious guy in the face? take a paid 2 week vacation to think it over)

 

Ultimately I agree with you (maybe not on the severity of punishment, but definitely on some actual consequences other than unpaid leave). Police somehow are held to a lower standard than the rest of us, however it should be the opposite.

 

I am by no means defending sick and racist police officers. But I think the mentality to paint all police as racist is simply wrong and does even more harm in the long run. I try hard not to judge those whos shoes I have not walked in. I'm not sure if you've ever been to those terrible areas of Detroit, Baltimore, or really any city before. But I don't find it difficult to see how these cops are driven to constantly be on edge and often overreact, become racist, etc. Having to deal with irrational people who are on drugs or in high crime areas day in and day out certainly takes its toll on their thought process. Again, I'm not excusing the behavior. I think cops should all be wearing body cams and I think the lack of punishment for cops who committed these murders is absolutely disgusting and sad. This type of thinking can be seen from a more extreme perspective in former Vietnam vets who are extremely racist towards Asians. But I'm not going to say "All Vietnam vets are racists!" That doesn't solve anything except increase tension.

 

There are just as many videos out there showing cops with proper interactions or where black people automatically throw out the race card when pulled over for something normal. They get belligerent and defiant with the cops and then the situation escalates. I am not black (clearly). But you would think if you were a black person you would realize that it's in your best interest to be calm and respectful to the officer even if you think they pulled you over for no reason. Why would you want to risk anything?

 

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