They got what they deserve

[Cardboard]

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/braid-vancouver-gasoline-crisis-is-john-horgans-just-reward/

 

Next will be a housing collapse.

 

Cardboard

[Parsad]

It's not a crisis...yet.  And it's forcing more people to go fill up in the U.S.  So how is it that scenario is going to help Alberta?!

 

I live less than 10 minutes from the U.S. border.  I fill up there every other week.  Be careful with your condemnations and assumptions, because it could back fire.  Cheers!

[sculpin]

It's not a crisis...yet.  And it's forcing more people to go fill up in the U.S.  So how is it that scenario is going to help Alberta?!

 

I live less than 10 minutes from the U.S. border.  I fill up there every other week.  Be careful with your condemnations and assumptions, because it could back fire.  Cheers!

 

Do you have any problems dodging the taxes on Canadian gasoline that pay the social services in BC that most of the other drivers have to pay for when you go get your gasoline in Washington State? Did you vote for Horgan or Weaver who have imposed these new taxes & are responsible for stopping the twinning of the TMP? Do you support the carbon tax imposed on BC drivers that is avoided when burning gasoline to go fuel up over the border?

 

So much hypocrisy in BC. Look at all of the coal (both US & Canadian) sent to Asia from Westshore & other places - far more dirty & polluting. Why no tax on this or a complete halting of this process if BC politicians & their supporters want to stop oil from Alberta "for the environment. Why the encouragement of more & more filthy cruise ships each Summer into the ports of Victoria & up the coast of BC. Does this not harm Orcas as much as an additional single oil tanker? Äll those particulate emissions raining down on the Great Bear rain forest!! Where are the politicians, protestors etc?

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/daily-emissions-of-cruise-ships-same-as-one-million-cars/

 

 

 

[Cardboard]

Oh yeah, I should be really careful with my condemnations:

 

"Alberta's own fiscal mismanagement over two decades!  You reep what you sow and Alberta has sown nothing when things were good.  Cheers!"

 

Cheers!!!

 

Cardboard

[Parsad]

It's not a crisis...yet.  And it's forcing more people to go fill up in the U.S.  So how is it that scenario is going to help Alberta?!

 

I live less than 10 minutes from the U.S. border.  I fill up there every other week.  Be careful with your condemnations and assumptions, because it could back fire.  Cheers!

 

Do you have any problems dodging the taxes on Canadian gasoline that pay the social services in BC that most of the other drivers have to pay for when you go get your gasoline in Washington State? Did you vote for Horgan or Weaver who have imposed these new taxes & are responsible for stopping the twinning of the TMP? Do you support the carbon tax imposed on BC drivers that is avoided when burning gasoline to go fuel up over the border?

 

So much hypocrisy in BC. Look at all of the coal (both US & Canadian) sent to Asia from Westshore & other places - far more dirty & polluting. Why no tax on this or a complete halting of this process if BC politicians & their supporters want to stop oil from Alberta "for the environment. Why the encouragement of more & more filthy cruise ships each Summer into the ports of Victoria & up the coast of BC. Does this not harm Orcas as much as an additional single oil tanker? Äll those particulate emissions raining down on the Great Bear rain forest!! Where are the politicians, protestors etc?

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/daily-emissions-of-cruise-ships-same-as-one-million-cars/

 

I pay for those social services with the income and property taxes I pay...which is far higher than the average.  I'm not a fan of consumption taxes except for luxury vehicles...I think they are regressive and harm those that are at the opposite end of the income range they are targeting.  I voted for Christy Clark, as well as believe in twinning the Trans-Canada pipeline.  But threats from Alberta to shut off gas is only going to back fire on desperate Albertans!

 

By the way, BC doesn't have a problem with increased tankers, but with the long-term, permanent ecological impact from tanker spills...that's a hell of a lot different than cruise ships coming into port.  The comparison is more like a 20-year environmental disaster versus 500 cars driving into the Vancouver area from the suburbs.  This is the same argument with Westshore...it's not the product that BC has a problem with, but disasters occurring in Burrard Inlet or the Georgia Straight.  Imagine oil sands impacting the environment around Calgary or Edmonton, rather than all the way out in Fort McMurray.  Would Albertan's be ok with that?  Cheers!

[bizaro86]

The gasoline in WA mostly comes from AB oil as well, down the same transmountain system. The primary difference in cost between the two places is tax and regulatory burden price differences.

 

If AB did shut down transmountain, Washington State gas prices would go up dramatically as well.

[Parsad]

The gasoline in WA mostly comes from AB oil as well, down the same transmountain system. The primary difference in cost between the two places is tax and regulatory burden price differences.

 

If AB did shut down transmountain, Washington State gas prices would go up dramatically as well.

 

Only about 25% of Washington's oil comes from Canada...most of it comes from Alaska.  They could increase delivery from other sources if required.  Again, why would Alberta want to get involved in a dispute with Washington state?

 

Rather than threatening rhertoric, they should be working on a solution with BC.  Cheers!

[SharperDingaan]

I'm sorry, but this is just straight dumb.

Alberta can't get enough oil/gas to tidewater ... and now wants to cut back on what actually IS going through the pipe?

Hey boys, it'll make the Albertan economy even worse, but it'll make us feel great!

Real smart.

 

Vancouverites will just buy their gas accross the border, BC will import directly from the US, Americans will get the work, and more Albertans will lose their jobs. But hey, the screaming kids in the backseat of the car know everything right?

 

Six months ago this would have been laughed at - now it's suddenly acceptable?

Looks to us like Albertans are being manipulated, but done slowly so as to avoid setting off alarms. Even through two world wars, Canadian provinces didn't threaten each other. Now they suddenly do - and no alarms go off?

 

SD

 

[Cigarbutt]

Proportional amount of oil moving to Washington State from Alberta

2018: 30%

Q4 2018: 29%

 

Oil transport modes in Washington State

            vessel      pipeline        rail

2003      91%          9%            0%

2013      67%          24%          8%

2018      45%          28%          28% 

 

Washington can move its procurement back to previous patterns but there would be a price so Alberta is right to use the stick argument.

 

However, I would say that the end consumer will continue to be rationally sensitive to reliable and cheap sources of energy during the transition and IMHO Alberta will need to polish its carrot argument and that may imply listening to endangered bird species presentations, reducing hostility in the "new" political climate and accept that the Energy Boards call themselves the Department of Ecology.

https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publications/documents/1908005.pdf

 

Oil will flow and so will the dollars.

 

For those interested in intra-national comparisons, I've found this site to be useful:

https://charting.kentgroupltd.com/Charting/FullMonty

 

The gasoline prices variables help to see how regional differences can be harmonized into a national priority.

[Cardboard]

Reading some of the arguments here is just appaling.

 

Every week, oil tankers move up and down the St Lawrence River or one of the largest in the world and where tourists go to see whales and majestic scenery. Yup, bringing "clean" oil from Saudi Arabia and other unsavory places at a growing pace.

 

Where is the outcry about spill dangers to the whale population, land, lobster/crab business?

 

Every week, oil tankers move up and down the West coast of B.C.. They come from Alaska and even Russia and head down to the U.S. West coast.

 

Where is the outcry about spill dangers to the whale population, land, lobster/crab business?

 

I cannot recall any major incident or spill in the St Lawrence nor on the coast in B.C. There was a big one in Alaska in the 80's or the Exxon Valdez and from that point on we learned a few things:

 

1- Double hull vessels only

2- Competent and sober captains

 

For those unaware, the St Lawrence is actually quite tricky to navigate. So what has been put in place is that a local pilot comes on board as soon as any large foreign vessel gets into the river.

 

http://www.greatlakes-seaway.com/en/business-and-industry/pilotage_authorities.html 

 

Are people aware that the same system also exist in B.C. today?

 

https://www.bccoastpilots.com/marine-pilots/

 

So why Bill C-48 or basically shutting down Canadian oil flow on the west coast while we allow Americans, Russians and vessels from almost any country to move their oil both on the West and East coast?

 

This shows the stupidity of our Premier Turdo: prevent oil shipments out of Kitimat B.C. but, send more for shipment in the Vancouver area...

 

Actually, him and Butts may not be that stupid. They knew that TransMountain would face opposition. So maybe that by killing Northern Gateway + introducing Bill C-48, that they knew that none of the two projects would make it to the end line?

 

Regarding Sanjeev's proposal of trying to deal with B.C., unfortunately it is just a dead end with current government in place. Rachel tried it and she lost badly.

 

So a new approach is required and needs to hurt. Reducing the amount of gasoline, diesel and kerosene going through TransMountain is a good one IMO. We can always ship by rail more refined products to the U.S. vs oil. Everybody wants our goods. It is just a few dick heads trying to block us from end users.

 

Cardboard

[Parsad]

Reading some of the arguments here is just appaling.

 

Every week, oil tankers move up and down the St Lawrence River or one of the largest in the world and where tourists go to see whales and majestic scenery. Yup, bringing "clean" oil from Saudi Arabia and other unsavory places at a growing pace.

 

Where is the outcry about spill dangers to the whale population, land, lobster/crab business?

 

Every week, oil tankers move up and down the West coast of B.C.. They come from Alaska and even Russia and head down to the U.S. West coast.

 

Where is the outcry about spill dangers to the whale population, land, lobster/crab business?

 

I cannot recall any major incident or spill in the St Lawrence nor on the coast in B.C. There was a big one in Alaska in the 80's or the Exxon Valdez and from that point on we learned a few things:

 

1- Double hull vessels only

2- Competent and sober captains

 

For those unaware, the St Lawrence is actually quite tricky to navigate. So what has been put in place is that a local pilot comes on board as soon as any large foreign vessel gets into the river.

 

http://www.greatlakes-seaway.com/en/business-and-industry/pilotage_authorities.html 

 

Are people aware that the same system also exist in B.C. today?

 

https://www.bccoastpilots.com/marine-pilots/

 

So why Bill C-48 or basically shutting down Canadian oil flow on the west coast while we allow Americans, Russians and vessels from almost any country to move their oil both on the West and East coast?

 

This shows the stupidity of our Premier Turdo: prevent oil shipments out of Kitimat B.C. but, send more for shipment in the Vancouver area...

 

Actually, him and Butts may not be that stupid. They knew that TransMountain would face opposition. So maybe that by killing Northern Gateway + introducing Bill C-48, that they knew that none of the two projects would make it to the end line?

 

Regarding Sanjeev's proposal of trying to deal with B.C., unfortunately it is just a dead end with current government in place. Rachel tried it and she lost badly.

 

So a new approach is required and needs to hurt. Reducing the amount of gasoline, diesel and kerosene going through TransMountain is a good one IMO. We can always ship by rail more refined products to the U.S. vs oil. Everybody wants our goods. It is just a few dick heads trying to block us from end users.

 

Cardboard

 

Cardboard, I'm in favour of pipelines...they are safer in transporting oil than railcar, etc.  The quandry and debate isn't about the pipeline...it's about increasing the number of Aframax tankers from currently 50 to 480 if the pipeline gets built.  It's like Buffett's discussion around a nuclear detonation...if you have a 1-2% chance in any given year, then it becomes a certainty over 50-100 years.  If we have 480 tankers going in and out, up and down our coast line, it's almost a certainty we would see an Exxon Valdez size catastrophe over decades.  BC isn't trying to screw over Alberta, but they have a fundamental duty to ensure that their own assets aren't permanently destroyed from negligence or accidents.  That would be common sense, no?  Cheers!

[Viking]

I live in BC (Vancouver) and hearing Horgan talk about LOWERING gas prices to help consumers is complete crap. The NDP/Greens in BC (and Trudeau Liberals) should be be straight with consumers in BC and let them know that they welcome gas prices over $1.80/litre (which is the truth). In fact $2.50-$3.00 per litre would make them even more happy.

 

The reason is simple: there should be a cost on pullution (we are told). And this cost needs to be much, much higher. Those who drive a vehicle are evil and they need to pay more. And those who own an SUV or truck are especially evil as these vehicles pollute the worst (get the worst gas milage).

 

High has prices will result in fewer km driven. People will choose to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles. Much higher gas prices will simply accelerate the process...

[Parsad]

I live in BC (Vancouver) and hearing Horgan talk about LOWERING gas prices to help consumers is complete crap. The NDP/Greens in BC (and Trudeau Liberals) should be be straight with consumers in BC and let them know that they welcome gas prices over $1.80/litre (which is the truth). In fact $2.50-$3.00 per litre would make them even more happy.

 

The reason is simple: there should be a cost on pullution (we are told). And this cost needs to be much, much higher. Those who drive a vehicle are evil and they need to pay more. And those who own an SUV or truck are especially evil as these vehicles pollute the worst (get the worst gas milage).

 

High has prices will result in fewer km driven. People will choose to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles. Much higher gas prices will simply accelerate the process...

 

Hi Viking, I really think it's a combination of higher taxes and there is price gouging occurring.  Remember when Jeff What'shisname from CIBC said that oil was going to hit $200 a barrel in 2007...it was like at $85-90/barrel then...but gas prices still barely cracked $1.50/liter in Vancouver.  So how the heck can it be $1.70/liter at $50/barrel?  We haven't padded on that much in taxes alone.  Cheers!

[Viking]

I live in BC (Vancouver) and hearing Horgan talk about LOWERING gas prices to help consumers is complete crap. The NDP/Greens in BC (and Trudeau Liberals) should be be straight with consumers in BC and let them know that they welcome gas prices over $1.80/litre (which is the truth). In fact $2.50-$3.00 per litre would make them even more happy.

 

The reason is simple: there should be a cost on pullution (we are told). And this cost needs to be much, much higher. Those who drive a vehicle are evil and they need to pay more. And those who own an SUV or truck are especially evil as these vehicles pollute the worst (get the worst gas milage).

 

High has prices will result in fewer km driven. People will choose to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles. Much higher gas prices will simply accelerate the process...

 

Hi Viking, I really think it's a combination of higher taxes and there is price gouging occurring.  Remember when Jeff What'shisname from CIBC said that oil was going to hit $200 a barrel in 2007...it was like at $85-90/barrel then...but gas prices still barely cracked $1.50/liter in Vancouver.  So how the heck can it be $1.70/liter at $50/barrel?  We haven't padded on that much in taxes alone.  Cheers!

 

Here is a very good summary of the situation: https://vancouversun.com/news/canada/why-vancouver-is-still-getting-utterly-hosed-on-gas-prices/wcm/88037cee-c20a-4b2b-819f-7071c63ee76c

 

1.) There’s only one refinery

2.) There’s also only one pipeline (and it’s full)

3.) B.C. fuel regulations drive up costs

4.) The weak loonie isn’t helping

5.) It’s not like Washington State gas is all that cheap, either

6.) And don’t forget all the taxes

 

“Parent cautioned against the assumption that a high refining margin automatically means higher profits. All manner of costs, from transportation expenses to regulatory compliance, can swell a refinery margin. Jennifer Winter, an energy economist at the University of Calgary, was also skeptical that Vancouver’s prices could be attributed to malice. “A large refining margin is usually a function of transportation constraints rather than a deliberate exercise of market power,” she said, adding that plenty of Canadian cities rely on small numbers of fuel providers without their refinery margins skyrocketing.”

 

“The Lower Mainland used to have four refineries, but shut down three of them in the early 1990s. The result is that most of Vancouver’s gasoline has to be refined elsewhere, which leaves the region vulnerable to wild swings in prices. Imagine if Vancouver closed most of its bakeries and relied on Alberta and Washington State to provide most of its fresh bread: All it would take would be one storm or highway closure for baguette prices to leap out of control.”

 

There’s also only one pipeline (and it’s full): “Up to 60 per cent of the fossil fuels burned in Vancouver start life in an Edmonton refinery. From there, they’re loaded into the Trans Mountain pipeline and shipped west. But the pipeline can’t fully meet the needs of an expanding Lower Mainland and it’s already full. The result is that Vancouver is increasingly dependent on Washington State to meet its fuel needs.”

 

Bottom line is NDP government is in a pickle; they MUST have the support of the BC Green party to stay in power. As a result they are highly unlikely to deal with this issue in a long term sort of way. The result will be more gas coming from Washington State and much higher prices for BC residents.

[SharperDingaan]

The higher Vancouver gas prices go, the more realistic, and RELIABLE, it becomes to just import by the tanker load from Galveston. Fuel flowing EAST from tidewater to interior BC, just as fuel currently flows WEST from tidewater to Montreal. Alberta becomes ENTIRELY captive to south bound pipelines - and forced to gratefully accept whatever price, the Americans CHOOSE to pay. Charming.

 

In Albertan eyes, Horgan simply has to go; by whatever means possible. An obvious no-brainer - yet everywhere else in the world this is called regime change, VZ being a current example. Hard to see how voluntarily cutting your own throat, and toppling fellow provincial governments, isn't manipulation. The real question is to what end?

 

Just a different POV

 

SD