Should Canada open up its borders?

[shalab]

I visited Mexico this week and can see why people want to come to the US. I have visited Canada as well. I would even say that on average, Canada is far wealthier than the U.S.

 

Having said that, what do folks on this forum think of opening up Canadian borders for people in the caravans with work permits to Canada? Canada anyway takes in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from around the world on an yearly basis. This will setup a positive example for all regimes in the world.

[DTEJD1997]

Shalab:

 

I think you are kind of on the right track...but Canada needs workers AND they've got a TON of open space.  They shouldn't take in hundreds of thousands, THEY SHOULD TAKE IN MILLIONS!

 

The USA could even help this by running daily bus caravans North to Canada.

 

Canada also has an EXCELLENT health care system.  They could teach USA how to do things.  What better way than to SHOW instead of TELL?  Allow people from USA to come into Canada for healthcare.

 

Finally, Mexico should reciprocate and allow USA people to come in and buy businesses and real estate!

[Viking]

This is a very complicated topic. Immigration, if not handled properly, can cause serious issues in the home country and Canada is no different in this regard. Most importantly, new immigrants need to be settled properly and must be able to find meaningful jobs (over time) and be integrated properly into society; this takes generations to be done properly. Most importantly, the Canadian population (as a whole) needs to support the immigration policy in place and my guess is the vast majority of Canadian support the status quo (current numbers continuing).

 

Canada is facing some serious headwinds the next couple of years: housing bubble, oil industry in decline, protectionist US. This is likely going to stress the economic and political system. Status quo on immigration makes sense to me.

[no_free_lunch]

Great idea!  This is exactly what our PM asked for.

 

It is racist to be opposed to this.

 

Thanks for taking us at our word.

[LC]

So I like my idea from the other thread, which I'll repeat here:

 

Let em in but make em pay.

 

In other words, some type of non-citizen economic green card status. You can live and work here, but you have to pay an extra tax and you don't get the same social services, voting rights, passport, etc.

 

It has a few benefits:

1) It keeps people above-board. They have a legal status and aren't frightened daily of being kicked out (More a USA problem than Canada), but also the country can track them - which is useful for the below items.

 

2) From a risk perspective it makes sense. You are coming to this country because of presumably safety/rule of law, job opportunities, etc. These are all characteristics you did not help build - so instead of giving them away for free, you pay a tax.

 

3) This tax helps ease the burden of native citizens who did help build such an environment. Maybe there is even some provision where if you don't pay into this tax over  a span of XYZ years, you get kicked out (which is why it's important to have these folks registered and have a legal status)

 

It's not perfect but to me it makes sense. The gov't gets value, the immigrants get value, the native citizens get value.

[Orchard]

Maybe Canada is already doing it? Just see the attached.

[Cigarbutt]

I guess the thread is meant to be provocative but here are some numbers:

 

For the US:

number of immigrants per year: about 1 million in 2018 (stable and declining?)

 

For Canada:

number of immigrants per year: 310 000 in 2018 (on the rise, 330,000 expected in 2019, 340,000 in 2020)

 

The population ratio between the 2 countries=9

 

The foreign-born residents to total population:

US=about 14-15%

CDN=about 20-21%

 

In the US, the reported numbers underestimate the "foreign" component because of the "illegal" aspect.

Estimate of total illegal immigrant population in the US: about 10 to 20M

Estimate of total illegal immigrant population in Canada: about 65 000

So, it would be reasonable to "adjust" the numbers in the US by adding about a third of the reported value for the total immigrant population.

 

The reason for the difference in illegal immigration rates is mainly geographic in nature. According to a certain rhetoric, the US would be great again if there would be another Canada south of their border to act as a buffer. :)

 

As Viking explains, the immigration issue is a difficult one.

From a humble northern perspective, the US is a victim of its own success and it seems that many moderate voices in both tribes have tried, for years, to reach a reasonable compromise.

Why so little progress and why are we hitting a wall?

[rb]

Looks like shalab's Canada boner is back.

[rb]

So I like my idea from the other thread, which I'll repeat here:

 

Let em in but make em pay.

 

In other words, some type of non-citizen economic green card status. You can live and work here, but you have to pay an extra tax and you don't get the same social services, voting rights, passport, etc.

LC, as far as I remember you have lived in Canada for a while. So you should know that what you're proposing would not just be in contrary our laws, it would be in contrary to our values.

 

What you're proposing is not akin to say half slavery, but definitely similar to the practices of some mafioso racketeer. Why should one not receive goverment services if one is paying for them? Even more than others in your example. If one is an upstanding member of the society, why should one not have a voice in shaping the society one lives in? This is US style BS - let's make people's lives hard just because we can. Once we do that we can feel good about ourselves.

 

Ok now, Canada actually has a pretty decent open border. A lot of people can come here. We have a foreign worker program - so people can come here legally to work on our farms, etc. Once they're in they pay taxes, and are under the full protection of our laws (including minimum wage). They don't have to sneak in. It's quite a serious list of offenses for someone to hire undocumented workers.

 

When it comes to the number of people we take in, compared to the Unites States, it is a LOT. Proportionally, legal immigration I think is higher than legal immigration in the US+illegal immigration+border apprehensions. Foreign workers are not included in the immigration numbers so those would be on top.

[LC]

rb,

 

Fair points all around. Yes I lived in Montreal for years, and yes it's a weird proposition (and not really serious) because it's very un-Canadian. I blame my retreat to the States  ;D

 

It's a bit like the modest proposal. I am serious about the States part - people here have become so divided and certain folks are simply unwilling to compromise. This unwillingness is a sign of their underlying belief - because it's about tribalism more than anything else. So you have to make them a ridiculous offer that meets every one of their stated criteria, to bring their true beliefs out into the open.

 

For example, I made this proposal on the other active thread in the politics section. It hits all their criteria. Tax revenue. Less of a burden on "Native Citizens". The gov't can track immigrants, impose harsher penalties on them for misbehavior. But not a single person bit (except for Sanjeev, and good for him!) because they are simply unwilling to compromise. As meiroy correctly posted in that thread, "If those people crossing via Mexico were white they wouldn't care that much about it.  That's what it comes down to."

 

So now that I've explained myself, hopefully not too poorly, I'll commend you on two, very fine, very Canadian, very human policies (in your own words):

 

Ok now, Canada actually has a pretty decent open border. A lot of people can come here. We have a foreign worker program - so people can come here legally to work on our farms, etc. Once they're in they pay taxes, and are under the full protection of our laws (including minimum wage). They don't have to sneak in. It's quite a serious list of offenses for someone to hire undocumented workers.

 

When it comes to the number of people we take in, compared to the Unites States, it is a LOT. Proportionally, legal immigration I think is higher than legal immigration in the US+illegal immigration+border apprehensions. Foreign workers are not included in the immigration numbers so those would be on top.

 

Kudos to you and I wish my home country embraced such ideals. And I still tell my wife that we will be living back in Montreal...hopefully sooner rather than when I am too much older...truly a special place in the world and my heart.

[ERICOPOLY]

Regarding the "welfare state and open borders can't have both" argument.  What keeps the illegal aliens who are already in the US from stepping over the Canadian border if the US tries to hunt them down en masse for deportation?

 

 

Lately, Luna said, they’ve seen more and more people with visitor visas from the Middle East trying to cross into Canada, perhaps hoping to have a better chance at getting asylum there than in the U.S.

 

https://splinternews.com/at-the-canadian-border-theres-no-wall-but-plenty-of-pe-1793862827

 

[rb]

Regarding the "welfare state and open borders can't have both" argument.  What keeps the illegal aliens who are already in the US from stepping over the Canadian border if the US tries to hunt them down en masse for deportation?

 

 

Lately, Luna said, they’ve seen more and more people with visitor visas from the Middle East trying to cross into Canada, perhaps hoping to have a better chance at getting asylum there than in the U.S.

 

https://splinternews.com/at-the-canadian-border-theres-no-wall-but-plenty-of-pe-1793862827

Well it's true that some people do cross. Apply for asylum. Some people get it, others don't.

 

But there are some serious obstacles.

 

1. Canada is cold. A lot of people don't like that.

 

2. Most illegals in the US don't have a support system in Canada. Let's face it, most illegals in the US are Latinos. There are barely any Latinos in Canada. Seriously! There is no decent Mexican food here anywhere. So in the US as an illegal you may have some friends, relatives, etc. Here you have no-one. It's hard to live life like that.

 

3. Canada is generally more expensive than the US.

 

4. The welfare state is actually not that good.

 

5. As an illegal it would be nearly impossible to find work here. In the US they've worked out "systems" through which you can work and make some money. That infrastructure is simply not available in Canada. No money, no food. Furthermore, as I've mentioned before, if you would hire illegals you would probably be in violation of a shitload of laws. Not so much from an immigration perspective, but from a protection of the person perspective.

 

6. A good way to personify these obstacles are the DACA people. A LOT of them would be able to immigrate to Canada legally and build a good life over here. Yet they don't come.

[rb]

Kudos to you and I wish my home country embraced such ideals. And I still tell my wife that we will be living back in Montreal...hopefully sooner rather than when I am too much older...truly a special place in the world and my heart.

LC, thanks for a kind post even though I may have been a little harsh in mine. Here's a somewhat funny related anecdote.

 

As I recall, you live in Colorado. On a recent trip to Arizona me and a friend were fantasizing about moving to the US. It didn't have anything to do with the ideology or politics of Canada vs. US. It was all about the weather. My buddy lives in Edmonton and he would prefer his nuts wouldn't be frozen all the time. In our fantasy we decided that Colorado would be an ideal place to be.

 

Then our type A personalities decided to find out how that could happen. Turns out that despite the fact that we have multiple graduate degrees, are upstanding citizens (not even parking tickets),  make well in excess of six figures, and we have a sizable bankroll saved up, there's basically no way that we could legally immigrate to the United States. That should tell anyone everything they need to know about the immigration policy of the US and their "open border".

[ERICOPOLY]

The US border officers have asked Canadians wishing to enter the US if they have ever smoked pot.  They were banned for life when they admitted that they had.

 

This would reduce the number of honest Canadians that enter the US, on a per capita basis.

 

That was at the Washington State border where pot is legal.

 

[cwericb]

ERICOPOLY it’s even worse than that.

Pot is now legal in Canada as it is in many States. US border guards are checking to see if Canadian citizens are employed by companies involved in the cannabis industry and then they ban them for life also.

Ah yes, the great land of the free.

 

Correction: I see that common sense prevailed and this has since been changed. However, if you worked in the industry and ever sampled the product, you could still be banned.

[DTEJD1997]

The US border officers have asked Canadians wishing to enter the US if they have ever smoked pot.  They were banned for life when they admitted that they had.

 

This would reduce the number of honest Canadians that enter the US, on a per capita basis.

 

That was at the Washington State border where pot is legal.

How is that different than Canada banning USA citizens who have had DUI's in their past?

[Gregmal]

The US border officers have asked Canadians wishing to enter the US if they have ever smoked pot.  They were banned for life when they admitted that they had.

 

This would reduce the number of honest Canadians that enter the US, on a per capita basis.

 

That was at the Washington State border where pot is legal.

How is that different than Canada banning USA citizens who have had DUI's in their past?

 

These guys(like ERIC) are supposedly staunch Republicans, card carrying NRA members, and protectors or freedom... who frequently seem to present only the raging liberal perspective.... Or at least thats what I've been told.

[LC]

Is it legal to DUI in a growing number of states? Is it legal to DUI for medical purposes?

[DTEJD1997]

Is it legal to DUI in a growing number of states? Is it legal to DUI for medical purposes?

The state laws re: MJ are in contradiction with FEDERAL laws.  If a case were to be pressed, FEDERAL law trumps state law.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens with this in the future.

 

I am surprised the Feds have not done anything on this.  Of course, they have not done anything with sanctuary cities or states either.  Two sets of laws in USA.

[Cardboard]

"These guys(like ERIC) are supposedly staunch Republicans, card carrying NRA members, and protectors or freedom... who frequently seem to present only the raging liberal perspective.... Or at least thats what I've been told."

 

Seems to me that Ericopoly is only on the Republican side when it affects his pocketbook aka taxes.

 

Everybody should have everything but, don't ask me to pay for it. LOL!

 

Cardboard

[LC]

Is it legal to DUI in a growing number of states? Is it legal to DUI for medical purposes?

The state laws re: MJ are in contradiction with FEDERAL laws.  If a case were to be pressed, FEDERAL law trumps state law.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens with this in the future.

 

I am surprised the Feds have not done anything on this.  Of course, they have not done anything with sanctuary cities or states either.  Two sets of laws in USA.

 

I'm arguing that your comparison is invalid because the nature of the two activities you are trying to compare are vastly different.

 

The proof that these activities are different is exemplified by the fact that one is used for medical purposes.

 

DUIs get people killed. Smoking "the reefer" in your mom's basement does not.

 

Do you think an accountant who works for Canadian WeedCo. should be banned for life from the US?

 

[DTEJD1997]

Is it legal to DUI in a growing number of states? Is it legal to DUI for medical purposes?

The state laws re: MJ are in contradiction with FEDERAL laws.  If a case were to be pressed, FEDERAL law trumps state law.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens with this in the future.

 

I am surprised the Feds have not done anything on this.  Of course, they have not done anything with sanctuary cities or states either.  Two sets of laws in USA.

 

I'm arguing that your comparison is invalid because the nature of the two activities you are trying to compare are vastly different.

 

The proof that these activities are different is exemplified by the fact that one is used for medical purposes.

 

DUIs get people killed. Smoking "the reefer" in your mom's basement does not.

 

Do you think an accountant who works for Canadian WeedCo. should be banned for life from the US?

 

According to the FEDERAL position in the USA, MJ use & possession, even for medical use is illegal & prohibited. 

 

Please see: https://www.safeaccessnow.org/federal_marijuana_law

 

As to driving while intoxicated, I am not 100% sure that there are Federal laws regarding that, but it is illegal in all 50 states & territories.  In the USA, driving regulations are usually left to the states & local muncipalities.

 

Border security & inflow & outflow of people is under sole jurisdiction & control of FEDERAL government in USA...so the FEDS see MJ use, growing, sales, etc. as strictly prohibited and you could make an argument that Mr. Weed clerk from Canada is MUCH worse than a drunk driver, as he is part of an ongoing criminal enterprise.

 

I don't think that a DUI should keep you out of Canada for life...but Canada is for Canadians, they set the rules for their country.  I would not like MJ people from Canada coming into USA willy nilly...but if they were upstanding citizens then maybe?

 

Just trying to enlighten you as to the position in USA.

 

 

[rb]

Just for the record, i think both government positions are stupid.

 

This argument is stupid as well. This is how it should be handled:

 

BPO: Did you ever smoke pot?

 

Entrant: No sir!

 

Problem solved.

 

Just like we do every single day.

[Cardboard]

I just went to the U.S. and they never asked me such question. The agent was very polite and questions similar to other times. Same kind of questioning as I returned to Canada from the Canadian side.

 

Although it was very slow at the border crossing or much longer than usual entering the U.S. and I suspect it had a lot to do with legalization of pot by our imbecile Trudeau. Questioning time for most cars was a lot longer than I ever recall or by a multiple. Also lots of cars held up for further inspection.

 

If the U.S. ban Trudeau due to his pot activities or even better incarcerate him for life that would suit me very well.

 

Cardboard

[Jurgis]

As I recall, you live in Colorado. On a recent trip to Arizona me and a friend were fantasizing about moving to the US. It didn't have anything to do with the ideology or politics of Canada vs. US. It was all about the weather. My buddy lives in Edmonton and he would prefer his nuts wouldn't be frozen all the time. In our fantasy we decided that Colorado would be an ideal place to be.

 

Then our type A personalities decided to find out how that could happen. Turns out that despite the fact that we have multiple graduate degrees, are upstanding citizens (not even parking tickets),  make well in excess of six figures, and we have a sizable bankroll saved up, there's basically no way that we could legally immigrate to the United States. That should tell anyone everything they need to know about the immigration policy of the US and their "open border".

 

Isn't that pretty much true for most countries?

 

Most (?) countries have millionaire visas/resident permits. I believe both US and Canada do. But that requires $XM investment into the country. Not sure if you and your friend would fall into this category. If you would, that's the ticket.

 

If you're not millionaire, then the only non-family-based way AFAIK is work based immigration and that would depend on finding an employer who would want to hire you and sponsor work visa. Presumably this is not very easy (anymore). But I'm not sure that's easy with Canada either. Maybe easier than with US, IDK.

 

BTW, some time ago I was looking at Australia, New Zealand. They pretty much do not admit anyone above 50 years of age on work visas (and possibly even on millionaire visas, not sure anymore). Which is even more strict than US.

 

So...  ::)