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This is Where the Left is Taking Us


Gregmal
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https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/15/bernie-sanders-targets-walmart-calls-for-15-minimum-wage.html

 

When politics and investing cross paths...

 

Soon they'll try to regulate what you can pay your landscaper or your plumber....

I've got a BIG problem with all these calls for a $15 minimum wage.

 

Not all jobs should pay a "living wage".  For example, I need some small tasks completed near/around my business.  I'm talking about pulling weeds, picking up trash, pruning a couple of bushes & so on.  That type of thing should pay $15 an hour? 

 

What about kids in high school?  They are trying to get experience, discipline, and make some $.  They got to get $15/hour?

 

What about a retiree that just wants MAYBE to get out of the house 2x a week for a few hours at a time?  They want to have something to do, help somebody else out, and make some spending money.  They have to get $15/hour?

 

What about an entry level position?  These positions SHOULD NOT be going to somebody who has to support a family.  People having families should have some amount of work experience.

 

Why isn't the left doing anything to reduce out of wedlock births? 

 

Why isn't the left doing anything about teaching people how to get ahead in life?  Don't get pregnant, don't get anybody else pregnant, stay in skool, be honest, don't get hooked on alcohol, drugs, or gambling.  Show up for work 5 minutes early...stay 5 minutes late.  While working, put in an honest effort.  Have a presentable demeanor.  Educate yourself, and look for self improvement.  Spend your money and have fun, but always save 10%+.  Stay away from debt & save & invest for the future.

 

If just those things were taught and were the "cool" things to do, 80% of problems would go away OR would be drastically minimized.

 

OR could it be that the left wants a large dependent class?  People that can't take care of themselves?

 

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Whoops!  I almost forgot!

 

If McDonalds and Wal-Mart workers start out $15/hour, what about all the attorneys?

 

There are SWARMS of attorneys that make $21/hour in the Detroit metro area.  There are a SHOCKING amount that make a lot less than that.  Are they going to get a pay raise?

 

What about the social workers with an MSW that make even less than that?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

What about computer technicians at Best Buy & other retailers that make $12/hour?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

If McDonald's pay starts out about $15/hour, what is the value of getting an education in many fields?  Skools are going to have a very time recruiting students!  Why spend $100k & 4 years to make $20/hour when you graduate?

 

 

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Whoops!  I almost forgot!

 

If McDonalds and Wal-Mart workers start out $15/hour, what about all the attorneys?

 

There are SWARMS of attorneys that make $21/hour in the Detroit metro area.  There are a SHOCKING amount that make a lot less than that.  Are they going to get a pay raise?

 

What about the social workers with an MSW that make even less than that?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

What about computer technicians at Best Buy & other retailers that make $12/hour?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

If McDonald's pay starts out about $15/hour, what is the value of getting an education in many fields?  Skools are going to have a very time recruiting students!  Why spend $100k & 4 years to make $20/hour when you graduate?

 

Somehow I wish there was an arbitrage opportunity to short McDonald's workers at $15/hr and go long lawyers at $21/hr. Although the obvious answer to this is that McDonalds has two amigos making $15 and the rest of the store is automated. I've already seen McDonalds by me introduce automated order taking systems at places where the workers still get about $10/hr... The liberals are so stupid.

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Why isn't the left doing anything to reduce out of wedlock births? 

 

...

 

???

 

...

 

Why is it that every logically sound idea by a conservative here needs to be frivolously picked apart down to one sentence that you can disagree on? I'll ask you straight up, which is preferable, in their totality? A bastard child that happened by accident, or one that was planned for by two adults looking to start a family?

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Why isn't the left doing anything to reduce out of wedlock births? 

 

...

 

???

 

...

 

Why is it that every logically sound idea by a conservative here needs to be frivolously picked apart down to one sentence that you can disagree on? I'll ask you straight up, which is preferable, in their totality? A bastard child that happened by accident, or one that was planned for by two adults looking to start a family?

 

Then stop trying to de-fund planned parenthood.

 

And in terms of your assertion about "every logically sound argument by conservatives" - give me a freaking break. He went from talking about a living wage to making SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS about how "THE LEFT" teaches people:

 

Why isn't the left doing anything about teaching people how to get ahead in life?  Don't get pregnant, don't get anybody else pregnant, stay in skool, be honest, don't get hooked on alcohol, drugs, or gambling.  Show up for work 5 minutes early...stay 5 minutes late.  While working, put in an honest effort.  Have a presentable demeanor.  Educate yourself, and look for self improvement.  Spend your money and have fun, but always save 10%+.  Stay away from debt & save & invest for the future.

 

But pointing out an obvious falsehood draws your ire? Talk about bias.

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  Skools are going to have a very time recruiting students!  Why spend $100k & 4 years to make $20/hour when you graduate?

Looks like you just solved the problem of inflated student loans.

 

Isn't it great when you can take care of the poorest of society AND help prevent future financial hardship, all in one fell swoop? Thanks for adding a second-level benefit I hadn't thought of!

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Democrats - A party of anti Semitism?

 

https://spectator.us/democratic-anti-semitism-israel/

 

I don't know what good this debate does anyone. I'm appalled that there are literally Nazis surfacing up and even running for office. I'm appalled that there are anarchists provoking fights and harassing people at their homes.

 

Can we please be better than that and say all of them are trash. None of us are like them and we want all of them gone.

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  Skools are going to have a very time recruiting students!  Why spend $100k & 4 years to make $20/hour when you graduate?

Looks like you just solved the problem of inflated student loans.

 

Isn't it great when you can take care of the poorest of society AND help prevent future financial hardship, all in one fell swoop? Thanks for adding a second-level benefit I hadn't thought of!

 

That is a very good point!

 

Anything to punish & starve the education industrial complex is a good thing.

 

Maybe I'm all wrong on this?

 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

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Whoops!  I almost forgot!

 

If McDonalds and Wal-Mart workers start out $15/hour, what about all the attorneys?

 

There are SWARMS of attorneys that make $21/hour in the Detroit metro area.  There are a SHOCKING amount that make a lot less than that.  Are they going to get a pay raise?

 

What about the social workers with an MSW that make even less than that?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

What about computer technicians at Best Buy & other retailers that make $12/hour?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

If McDonald's pay starts out about $15/hour, what is the value of getting an education in many fields?  Skools are going to have a very time recruiting students!  Why spend $100k & 4 years to make $20/hour when you graduate?

Maybe we need fewer attorneys and more people flipping burgers.

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Whoops!  I almost forgot!

 

If McDonalds and Wal-Mart workers start out $15/hour, what about all the attorneys?

 

There are SWARMS of attorneys that make $21/hour in the Detroit metro area.  There are a SHOCKING amount that make a lot less than that.  Are they going to get a pay raise?

 

What about the social workers with an MSW that make even less than that?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

What about computer technicians at Best Buy & other retailers that make $12/hour?  Do they get a pay raise?

 

If McDonald's pay starts out about $15/hour, what is the value of getting an education in many fields?  Skools are going to have a very time recruiting students!  Why spend $100k & 4 years to make $20/hour when you graduate?

Maybe we need fewer attorneys and more people flipping burgers.

In a sense you are absolutely correct.  The USA most definitely needs more burger flipper, fry-o-lator operators, truck drivers, janitors, plumbers and so on vs. attorneys.

 

HOWEVER, (at least when I was young) skools had no shop classes, no trades programs, no apprentice programs.  It was ALL focused on going to college.  There was NO discussion to be had.  You were going to college and getting AT LEAST a 4 year degree if not graduate skool.

 

Turns out, a lot of "education" is a bum steer.  A lot of it is simply no longer cost effective.  Perhaps the best example of this is attorneys.  If you go to a middle or lower ranked skool, you will have a VERY difficult time of finding  a job that pays enough to make the effort & cost worthwhile.  There have been some articles & studies showing that at the lower ranked skools, you have about a 1-2 percent chance of making it.  Think of the time effort (about 8 years), and then the tuition paid, usually at least $200k (sometimes a lot more).  How much do you need to make starting out to make your "education" worthwhile?

 

Compare that to the career trajectory of a motivated "fry-o-lator" operator.  The fry-o-lator operator wants to be a success in life.  In order to do so, they stay out of college & work hard, save & make sacrifices.  They live at home for the 1st 4 years.  They work 50 hours a week.  They save 1/2 of what they make.  They try to become "shift manager" after a few years.

 

The fry-o-lator operator then gets their own place in year 5, share it with a room-mate.  They then start enjoying life a bit more, and drop savings down to about 30%.  They invest in mutual funds (index funds).

 

Maybe they take 1 class a year that interests them at the community college.

 

The fry-olator operator would have moved up in ranks a little bit by year 8.  Heck, they might be assistant manager of a fast food franchise.  Drop savings down to 15% in year 9+.

 

Compared to an attorney, they are debt free, have an enviable nest egg, and are ready to become manager or perhaps even take an equity position in a franchise.

 

Compare that to you typical attorney that has graduated from Wayne State, UofDetroit,  Michigan State, or even Cooley.  Now the attorney is ready to start making money! maybe?  What if the attorney has $200k+ in student loans?  What if they start making $30k or $40k?  The fry-o-lator kid has the attorney beat by a country mile.

 

The crazy thing is that the amount of student loan debt that is never going to be paid is simply amazing.  The skools get away with it...all the away to the bank!

 

So absolutely YES, more burger flippers, less attorneys!

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I have never known a fast food worker that had any of their paycheck left over for savings, even those living at home. I’m not sure about the ‘enviable nest egg.’ 

 

The attorney from the B level school should, of course, go into private practice on their own or pursue some other higher paying or entrepreneurial endeavor with their useful education. If they choose to work for $15 per hour that is a choice. Seems to tell us more about the person than the value of education.

 

An attorney friend of mine, from a mid-level law school, got himself a gas station through hard work for gas station clients. By busting his ass hands on, he now has three gas stations and a successful independent law practice.

 

I went to public high school in Illinois in the 90’s and we had wood shop (which I took despite being on college track), auto shop, etc..  kids learned to weld, rebuild motors, carpentry skills

 

(I would also like to point out that undocumented Central American construction workers make $15 per hour and higher - sometimes much higher depending on the skillset - in New Orleans)

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I have never known a fast food worker that had any of their paycheck left over for savings, even those living at home. I’m not sure about the ‘enviable nest egg.’ 

 

The attorney from the B level school should, of course, go into private practice on their own or pursue some other higher paying or entrepreneurial endeavor with their useful education. If they choose to work for $15 per hour that is a choice. Seems to tell us more about the person than the value of education.

 

An attorney friend of mine, from a mid-level law school, got himself a gas station through hard work for gas station clients. By busting his ass hands on, he now has three gas stations and a successful independent law practice.

 

I went to public high school in Illinois in the 90’s and we had wood shop (which I took despite being on college track), auto shop, etc..  kids learned to weld, rebuild motors, carpentry skills

 

(I would also like to point out that undocumented Central American construction workers make $15 per hour and higher - sometimes much higher depending on the skillset - in New Orleans)

I know MANY attorneys that have decided to go the route of private practice.  Some do better than others...but of the "younger" ones that have done that, only 1 is doing ANYWHERE well enough to justify the time & expense of their education.

 

The plight of one attorney is very instructive about this.  He is tied into an "ethnic" community.  He advertises in the two newspapers in the state that address that ethnic group (and similar groups).  He gets business from that group that pays pretty well.  He has two problems though.  Problem #1 is that he has expenses, small office, advertising, Westlaw/Nexis, phone, internet, and so on.  Problem #2 is that he has an INCREDIBLY difficult time of scaling up business.  When he works, he gets paid decently, but he is working 1-2 days a week.  The problem with this is that his ethnic community is dispersed through the state AND there are others competing for that business. 

 

This guy is hard working, intelligent, speaks multiple languages, hustles, and so forth. I can give you MANY other stories like his.  If it were one or two or three people having problems, it is maybe personal issues.  When it is MOST of the graduates of a skool having problems, the problem is a STRUCTURAL problem.  I would love to see how many graduates of various skools wind up on IBR.  There are even many stories of how BIGLAW attorneys wind up on IBR!  Once again, a structural problem.  The cost of the education is simply not worth it, not even close.

 

Simply having the education and working hard is no longer guarantee of being able to make a decent living, not even close.

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The minimum wage worker does not have anything left over every month to 'invest'. He/she works the 3-4 jobs just to get enough total hours to cover their rent, utilities, transport, & meds. The last week of the month, is often courtesy of food from a foodbank.

 

A trades person can do very well while they are working; but there's a time-limit, & the work is sporadic. Most trades also take a toll on either the body or the social life, and require the tradesman to move to where the work is. Newfoundland trades people traveling to either Alberta, or the off-shore oil fields (10 days on, 10 days off), being a classic example.

 

Agreed that for many; a trade versus a profession, would have been the better choice - but you can't know that until 'after the fact'. And if you made the wrong choice, nothing prevents you from starting over; millions of people around the world do that every day. The dollar you need to pay your student loan, does not have to come from the profession for which you trained. 

 

I have a number of friends who graduated with business degrees ... and choose to work as garbage men/women for their first 4-5 years following graduation. And did so because nobody wants the job, every municipality needs a pickup at least once/week, and hence the 'minimum' wage was $100K/Yr + .... to put up with the smell. The smell was nothing that a shower couldn't cure, and for the most part they all did on-line MBA's at night while doing the job - quitting in the last 6 months to finish their MBA in a full-time program (often by transferring to a different school), & become 'respectable'  :D

 

You are what you make of your opportunities, and that's typically more a reflection of the individual versus their current situation. Nothing wrong in that.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

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...

Turns out, a lot of "education" is a bum steer.  A lot of it is simply no longer cost effective.  Perhaps the best example of this is attorneys.  If you go to a middle or lower ranked skool, you will have a VERY difficult time of finding  a job that pays enough to make the effort & cost worthwhile.  There have been some articles & studies showing that at the lower ranked skools, you have about a 1-2 percent chance of making it.  Think of the time effort (about 8 years), and then the tuition paid, usually at least $200k (sometimes a lot more).  How much do you need to make starting out to make your "education" worthwhile?

...

There appears to be growing evidence that the wage "premium" from higher education is narrowing during a period when student debt has been building up.

I'd say that, whether one is Left or Right or whatever, a useful rule of thumb for the typical degree would be to keep (or plan to keep) student debt upon graduation at a level not superior to a reasonably expected 1st year salary.

 

@DTEJD1997

Do you think 15 bucks an hour to be too high or do you simply believe that the concept of minimum wage is wrong?

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...

Turns out, a lot of "education" is a bum steer.  A lot of it is simply no longer cost effective.  Perhaps the best example of this is attorneys.  If you go to a middle or lower ranked skool, you will have a VERY difficult time of finding  a job that pays enough to make the effort & cost worthwhile.  There have been some articles & studies showing that at the lower ranked skools, you have about a 1-2 percent chance of making it.  Think of the time effort (about 8 years), and then the tuition paid, usually at least $200k (sometimes a lot more).  How much do you need to make starting out to make your "education" worthwhile?

...

There appears to be growing evidence that the wage "premium" from higher education is narrowing during a period when student debt has been building up.

I'd say that, whether one is Left or Right or whatever, a useful rule of thumb for the typical degree would be to keep (or plan to keep) student debt upon graduation at a level not superior to a reasonably expected 1st year salary.

 

@DTEJD1997

Do you think 15 bucks an hour to be too high or do you simply believe that the concept of minimum wage is wrong?

 

Cigarbutt:

 

You are roughly correct.  Total education expenditure should not be materially higher than 1x a reasonable 1st year salary.  I almost can't think of a way that would be even possible in the law field (barring scholarships).

 

Disregard law, there are PLENTY of skools now that a student will spend well over $100k to get a 4 year degree.  How many graduates are making $100k 1-2 years out of skool?  Barring certain exceptional cases, I am hard to pressed to think of too many.

 

OR

 

Think of this.  What if you are a parent of a child who is of reasonable intelligence & work ability, but is not in the top 5% or 10%...certainly better than average but not a standout.

 

Make them an offer:

 

Become an expert at working the "fry-o-lator" (or whatever else interests you & you can get paid at) and work your rear end off for 4 years (50hrs.+ week).  Live at home for 4 years.  Save/invest half your paycheck for 4 years.  If you can successfully do that for 4 years, at 4 years+1 day I'll give you $125k in CASH MONEY.  After that, you are free to do whatever you wish.

 

How many of the fry-o-lator operators would be better off than college graduates?

 

Depends on what you study and where you go to skool.  If you study "political science" at University of Toledo, I am betting everything I own on the Fry-o-lator operator.  If you study electrical engineering at Purdue...the engineer very well might do better than the Fry-o-lator operator.

 

As for minimum wage, in an ideal world, people should be able to contract to whatever they AND the employer find agreeable, maybe $1/hour minimum wage?  In real practice, almost nobody can be hired for $1/hour.  Here in the wilds of Detroit, even Fry-o-lator jobs pay more than $8/hour, sometimes even over $10/hour.  Other jobs that are somewhat more skilled than that, pay even more.

 

Some jobs are not meant for people to support families off of.  Some jobs are for 16 year olds who want to work 20 hours a week, get experience, get a good reference for the next job that pays $9/hour...and so on.  Or, what about retirees who want to stay active, help somebody out, and get spending money?  Or, what about people coming out of prison, who need to prove that they are rehabilitated and can enter society?

 

There is also so much work to be done!  In the Detroit area, there are literally 50k+ buildings that need to be torn down.  There are parks in desperate need of trash being picked up, grass cut, fences repaired.  The roads need desperate attention.  Why not have a work program that utilizes people to accomplish this?  Pay them $40/day, give them a snack & meal for each day of work.  If they can put together 50+ days, then they get certificate/recommendation "bronze star?".  Have some various levels of accomplishment (bronze, silver, gold, diamond) This accomplishment lets employers higher up the chain know that this person is a capable/reliable worker. 

 

The worker gets some money, experience, and references for better/higher paid work.  Win/win for society AND the worker(s).

 

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I don't know what good this debate does anyone. I'm appalled that there are literally Nazis surfacing up and even running for office. I'm appalled that there are anarchists provoking fights and harassing people at their homes.

 

Can we please be better than that and say all of them are trash. None of us are like them and we want all of them gone.

 

I completely agree. None of us are like them and they are all trash. Its a really funny state of affairs we find ourselves in.

 

We are a really tribal species. The internet has exposed this in a way nothing else could. At least tribes in the past made sense...they were based on language, customs, religion. Our new tribes...liberal vs conservative are artificial divisions that have become increasingly symbolic. Its really pretty funny.

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Maybe we need fewer attorneys and more people flipping burgers.

 

Maybe let the free market decide.

 

When government intervention caused a problem (too many over-educated people due to subsidized education) the answer isn't more government intervention (higher minimum wages) but less (less subsidization of education, no cheap government backed student loans).

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...

@DTEJD1997

Do you think 15 bucks an hour to be too high or do you simply believe that the concept of minimum wage is wrong?

...

 

 

As for minimum wage, in an ideal world, people should be able to contract to whatever they AND the employer find agreeable, maybe $1/hour minimum wage?  In real practice, almost nobody can be hired for $1/hour.  Here in the wilds of Detroit, even Fry-o-lator jobs pay more than $8/hour, sometimes even over $10/hour.  Other jobs that are somewhat more skilled than that, pay even more.

...

Thank you for the answer. I don't fully agree with your answer but some aspects make a lot of sense.

 

When in the "formative" phase, I was "forced" to complete ethics-related training which (un?)fortunately has caused to ask more questions than necessary later on.

 

-Comment on the bolded "agreeable" mentioned above and the right/left predicament

 

In some circles, it is said that the definition of agreeable mostly depends on being labeled as a "conservative" or a "liberal". In an ideal world, the open market wage negotiation should occur between a compassionate boss and a polite employee. But the world is not ideal. In fact, according to the trajectory of Gini coefficients over the last 35 years, it seems that, at least under a certain set of circumstances, humans (myself included) tend to oppress. How to deal with that is open for debate.

 

http://individual.utoronto.ca/jacobhirsh/publications/Hirsh_DeYoung_Xu_Peterson_2010.pdf

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...

@DTEJD1997

Do you think 15 bucks an hour to be too high or do you simply believe that the concept of minimum wage is wrong?

...

 

 

As for minimum wage, in an ideal world, people should be able to contract to whatever they AND the employer find agreeable, maybe $1/hour minimum wage?  In real practice, almost nobody can be hired for $1/hour.  Here in the wilds of Detroit, even Fry-o-lator jobs pay more than $8/hour, sometimes even over $10/hour.  Other jobs that are somewhat more skilled than that, pay even more.

...

Thank you for the answer. I don't fully agree with your answer but some aspects make a lot of sense.

 

When in the "formative" phase, I was "forced" to complete ethics-related training which (un?)fortunately has caused to ask more questions than necessary later on.

 

-Comment on the bolded "agreeable" mentioned above and the right/left predicament

 

In some circles, it is said that the definition of agreeable mostly depends on being labeled as a "conservative" or a "liberal". In an ideal world, the open market wage negotiation should occur between a compassionate boss and a polite employee. But the world is not ideal. In fact, according to the trajectory of Gini coefficients over the last 35 years, it seems that, at least under a certain set of circumstances, humans (myself included) tend to oppress. How to deal with that is open for debate.

 

http://individual.utoronto.ca/jacobhirsh/publications/Hirsh_DeYoung_Xu_Peterson_2010.pdf

 

At various points in my business career, I have had to hire employees.

 

At no point have I offered (or even been able to find workers) for minimum wage.  This was true even in the depths of the financial crisis.

 

At one point, I knew other business owners that hired illegal aliens (I never did).  Those that they hired were doing warehouse work, kitchen work, landscaping.  I asked the business owners what they were paying the illegals, as I was curious about stories of illegals being hired for less than minimum wage.  The wages paid to the illegals were a wide range, but none were minimum wage, the lowest was about $8/hour.  This would have been about 10 years ago.  When I asked the business owners about paying illegals low wages (like $4 or $5 hour), they simply laughed & shook their head.  They admitted that MAYBE this was going on, but if it were, it was a business model that preyed on the illegals and would be EXTREMELY difficult to work in the long run.  The illegals might take that job as a 1st job when they came in to the country, but would soon move on once they learned who & where paid more.  What business owner wants an employee that works for a few days or a week at most?

 

I am currently looking for a low level computer technician, and the labor market is VERY tight in the Detroit market.  One of the crazy things about the Detroit area is that if you are careful & diligent, you can have an EXTREMELY low living cost.  I would argue that it might be the lowest in the country.  So somebody who is willing to work 2 jobs (to insure 40+ hours week) can own house/condo, drive car, have high speed internet, smart phone, and so on.

 

Where you have free flow of information & movement of people, I don't think you will see much of very low paying jobs (predatory).  Perhaps you might be able to take advantage in places outside of Western world, as people don't have the mobility & choices?  Or maybe it might work in isolated, depressed places, with workers who just want some money (not supporting themselves or family off of job?)

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