Re: illegal immigrants and stolen social security numbers

[Guest MarkS]

Illegal immigrants have used about 39 million stolen security numbers - many of the numbers are stolen from kids because of the often long delay before discovery. So much for the victimless crime theory.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/illegal-immigrants-cited-in-theft-of-39-million-social-security-numbers

[cubsfan]

Of course - it's no problem for the unhinged left.

 

If you or I did that - it would be a felony and our careers would be ruined - and we would go to jail.

 

But if you are an illegal alien - hey - it's no problem ! Because people like Jerry Brown and Rob Emmanuel are there to "serve you" for your illegal vote.

 

An enormous double standard that will get ever worse.

[LC]

The Immigration Reform Law Institute said that from 2012 to 2016 there were “39 million instances where names and Social Security numbers on W-2 tax forms did not match the corresponding Social Security records.”

 

Symptom of the problem. 39 million illegal taxpayers.

[Guest MarkS]

The Immigration Reform Law Institute said that from 2012 to 2016 there were “39 million instances where names and Social Security numbers on W-2 tax forms did not match the corresponding Social Security records.”

 

Symptom of the problem. 39 million illegal taxpayers.

 

Along with fraudulent claims for tax credits.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2016/04/13/irs-admits-it-encourages-illegals-to-steal-social-security-numbers-for-taxes/#48bba27b4c04

[LC]

4.2B of "fraudulent" tax claims (not really fraudulent, just undocumented)

 

However a link from your same article says this:

 

According to the Social Security Administration, undocumented immigrants doled out an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes but will never get the benefits

 

So on the balance, Uncle Same is in the black?

[Guest MarkS]

LC

 

I would think that the c!aims for unearned tax credits are probably fraudulent.  You're confusing ITIN filers with Social Security number filers when you talk about not receiving social security payments.  ITIN filers are normally LLCs, partnerships etc. that are not eligible for social security. I'm far more okay with illegals using ITINs instead of using stolen social security numbers.  As succinctly stated by Cubsfan, we would be rotting in jail for using stolen numbers. But if you're a Mexican national or a Honduran National it's not only okay its promoted by the social justice warrior class.

 

Besides even if they pay taxes - illegals imo are costing the American taxpayers more than they receive back in taxes. See Topic: Do illegal immigrants cost the American Taxpayer? 

[cubsfan]

About 1/3 of California's budget goes to social services these days - the illegal immigrants are an enormous burden on the state.

But it's done to keep CA democratic - and the left has taken this success to enact complete irrational policy initiatives:

sanctuary cities (to include felons!!), state voting and driver's license id's based on their word, lower state tuitions for illegal immigrants vs citizens.

It's completely crazy.

 

And it's spilling over to Chicago - a democratically controlled city (for 70 yrs!) that has the worst murder problem in the country.

[fareastwarriors]

Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

[cubsfan]

Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

 

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.

This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM

and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

[doc75]

Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

 

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.

This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM

and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

 

This claim that "illegals are voting in droves" is commonly stated as fact, and equally commonly refuted as fiction.

 

Can you share any evidence of illegals voting under fake IDs in large numbers?  I thought Trump himself disbanded his committee looking into this because the problem essentially doesn't exist on any material scale.  But you are utterly convinced, so what evidence made you so convinced?

 

It's always struck me as a strange claim from a game theory point of view.  I would think the average illegal immigrant would want to stay as low profile as possible, and in particular avoid voluntary actions that require citizenship.  Sure, as a whole, the group may benefit by pushing Democrats into power... but people look out for themselves first, and it seems almost implausible that huge numbers would be taking on any additional risk to make their single vote count. 

 

 

[LC]

You're confusing ITIN filers with Social Security number filers when you talk about not receiving social security payments.

Unfortunately you are incorrect. I am specifically talking about undocumented workers.

 

This is the primary article that the Forbes article you linked eventually sources:

 

https://news.vice.com/article/unauthorized-immigrants-paid-100-billion-into-social-security-over-last-decade

 

Unauthorized workers are paying an estimated $13 billion a year in social security taxes and only getting around $1 billion back, according to a senior government statistician.

 

Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration (SSA), told VICE News that an estimated 7 million people are currently working in the US illegally. Of those, he estimates that about 3.1 million are using fake or expired social security numbers, yet also paying automatic payroll taxes. Goss believes that these workers pay an annual net contribution of $12 billion to the Social Security Trust Fund.

 

The SSA estimates that unauthorized workers have paid a whopping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. Yet as these people are in the US illegally, it is unlikely that they will be able to benefit from their contributions later in life.

 

Besides even if they pay taxes - illegals imo are costing the American taxpayers more than they receive back in taxes. See Topic: Do illegal immigrants cost the American Taxpayer?

As to your point on whether immigrants cost the US taxpayer, you can refer here:

 

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

 

The main points are:

-The US gov't is running a deficit, the implication there is that ALL taxpayers are net-negative.

-"The evidence does not suggest that current immigrant flows cost native-born taxpayers money over the long-run nor does it provide support for the notion that lowering immigration quotas or stepping up enforcement of existing immigration laws would generate savings to existing taxpayers,"

-Negative costs to immigrants are born by local/state govt's, from educating the children of illegal immigrants. These children are described as follows: "members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population."

 

Therefore, I don't share your opinion that illegal immigrants are any more expensive than native born citizens. The fact that the major cost of illegal immigrants is education is actually a good thing. Education generates a higher ROI than medicare/medicaid & Social security (the primary expenditures of native born citizens). For that reason I could even argue that illegal immigrants are the preferred expenditure.

[cubsfan]

Illegal aliens don't vote  and likely drain way more revenue than pay in taxes.  Why is it a benefit for Democratic Party to encourage the growth of illegals?

 

Illegals can easily vote with fake id's - in return the Democratic Party in CA and IL promise lots of expanded social services for them.

This has been a clear strategy started in California - and has permanently flipped CA to Democratic. It recently spread to NV and NM

and the hope it will continue to Texas and the rest of the Southwest.

 

This claim that "illegals are voting in droves" is commonly stated as fact, and equally commonly refuted as fiction.

 

Can you share any evidence of illegals voting under fake IDs in large numbers?  I thought Trump himself disbanded his committee looking into this because the problem essentially doesn't exist on any material scale.  But you are utterly convinced, so what evidence made you so convinced?

 

It's always struck me as a strange claim from a game theory point of view.  I would think the average illegal immigrant would want to stay as low profile as possible, and in particular avoid voluntary actions that require citizenship.  Sure, as a whole, the group may benefit by pushing Democrats into power... but people look out for themselves first, and it seems almost implausible that huge numbers would be taking on any additional risk to make their single vote count.

 

Well - here's how they get the voter id's - Jerry Brown passed a law to give undocumented illegals a driver license. Then they can simply use that

driver's license to get a voter id. There is not much of a fear among CA illegals - because there is no chance they will get deported, they are a protected class.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/

 

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article207939584.html

 

Here in Illinois, illegals can get driver's license with no documentation. With that, you can get a voter's card. In Chicago, with no documentation, you

can get City identity card - and vote in any election.

 

I will let you decide if illegals are voting in large numbers. It's against the interest of the Democratic Party to prove their is voter fraud obviously.

You can use your common sense and decide it is happening. The Democratic Party wants these folks to become citizens and is providing them

social services. You have latino blocks and community organizers behind this push. You decide.

 

But - again - if you or I, as American citizens did this - we would be prosecuted and jailed with ruined lives.

[cubsfan]

 

Therefore, I don't share your opinion that illegal immigrants are any more expensive than native born citizens. The fact that the major cost of illegal immigrants is education is actually a good thing. Education generates a higher ROI than medicare/medicaid & Social security (the primary expenditures of native born citizens). For that reason I could even argue that illegal immigrants are the preferred expenditure.

 

Oh my gosh - this is incredible. 80% of the current illegal immigrants are people from the poorest regions of Mexico and Honduras.

Lots of them are indigenous poor that don't even speak Spanish. It's so obvious these people are dirt poor. They suck up huge

amounts of California's social services. They don't speak English. The schools in California are ranked 49th in the country, they are so

over burden with the poor.

 

1/3 of the nation's welfare recipients live in California and 23% of Californians live below the poverty line. 50% of the population don't pay income taxes.

 

If your "theory" is correct - we should let millions of them in as they will boost our economy!

Maybe we should even kick all the rich people out - as the country will be so much better off!

 

You can't be serious?

 

Is this a place you would want to send your kids to school?

Why do you think so many middle class families are leaving California?

[LC]

If your "theory" is correct - we should let millions of them in as they will boost our economy!

 

Isn't this how America was built?

 

I'll just requote the relevant selection from my post because repetition is a decent way to learn:

 

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

 

-"The evidence does not suggest that current immigrant flows cost native-born taxpayers money over the long-run nor does it provide support for the notion that lowering immigration quotas or stepping up enforcement of existing immigration laws would generate savings to existing taxpayers,"

-Negative costs to immigrants are born by local/state govt's, from educating the children of illegal immigrants. These children are described as follows: "members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population."

 

[LC]

In fact, the earliest European immigrants were EXACTLY what you describe, cubsfan:

 

In 1607 the first successful English colony settled in Jamestown, Virginia. Once tobacco was found to be a profitable cash crop, many plantations were established along the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia and Maryland.

 

Thus began the first and longest era of immigration, lasting until the American Revolution in 1775; during this time settlements grew from initial English toe-holds from the New World to British America. It brought Northern European immigrants, primarily of British, German, and Dutch extraction. The British ruled from the mid-17th century and they were by far the largest group of arrivals, remaining within the British Empire. Over 90% of these early immigrants became farmers.[1]

 

Large numbers of young men and women came alone as indentured servants. Their passage was paid by employers in the colonies who needed help on the farms or in shops. Indentured servants were provided food, housing, clothing and training but they did not receive wages. At the end of the indenture (usually around age 21) they were free to marry and start their own farms.[2]

 

Thanks for making a great point!

 

[cubsfan]

You're a really joke LC - I want what is best for the citizens of California and the United States.

I want their lives to be better - better schools, lower taxes, more jobs, less crime, etc.

 

Take care of our US citizens first. California is being destroyed by illegal immigration.

 

You are advocating allowing the poorest and most crime ridden candidates to immigrate ILLEGALLY -  because it's good for the country!

Yea, let's kick out all the rich people! That will make the country better!

 

Ridiculous!

[doc75]

 

Well - here's how they get the voter id's - Jerry Brown passed a law to give undocumented illegals a driver license. Then they can simply use that

driver's license to get a voter id. There is not much of a fear among CA illegals - because there is no chance they will get deported, they are a protected class.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/

 

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article207939584.html

 

Here in Illinois, illegals can get driver's license with no documentation. With that, you can get a voter's card. In Chicago, with no documentation, you

can get City identity card - and vote in any election.

 

I will let you decide if illegals are voting in large numbers. It's against the interest of the Democratic Party to prove their is voter fraud obviously.

You can use your common sense and decide it is happening. The Democratic Party wants these folks to become citizens and is providing them

social services. You have latino blocks and community organizers behind this push. You decide.

 

I'm not questioning how one might go about voting.  It doesn't seem to be very difficult at all.

 

It's not up to me to "decide" whether people are voting in large numbers.  It's either true or it isn't.  The lack of evidence would seem to imply it isn't.  That's just common sense.  It's not like people haven't been searching for such evidence.  Trump himself commanded some people to look into it, convinced he'd find it.  He apparently did not. 

 

Maybe there really is evidence.  I don't know.  I asked you for it and you responded with "You can use your common sense and decide", along with a couple more unsubstantiated claims to fit your narrative.  So again:  If this is such an obvious and pervasive problem, then where is the evidence?

 

I'm not American.  I live far from California and have no concept of the realities of life there or most anywhere else in the US.  I just want to know why you are so sure of your own convictions without evidence. 

[cubsfan]

Doc - my answer to you is believe what you want. I told you the problem - That a democratic state like CA or IL is not going to investigate voter fraud

when it is clearly not in their interest?  They just aren't.

 

Perhaps not being familiar with US politics, you miss the fundamental insight that I never mentioned - for which I apologize.

The Democratic party is the party of "big government", socialization - a belief that most aspects of life in the US should be decided and controlled by gov.

The Republican Party is the part of  "limited government" - let private enterprise and individuals  decide what's best - regulate only the most egregious behavior.

 

That's fundamental in US politics.

 

I have no evidence for you.

 

[doc75]

Doc - my answer to you is believe what you want. I told you the problem - That a democratic state like CA or IL is not going to investigate voter fraud

when it is clearly not in their interest?  They just aren't.

 

Perhaps not being familiar with US politics, you miss the fundamental insight that I never mentioned - for which I apologize.

The Democratic party is the party of "big government", socialization - a belief that most aspects of life in the US should be decided and controlled by gov.

The Republican Party is the part of  "limited government" - let private enterprise and individuals  decide what's best - regulate only the most egregious behavior.

 

That's fundamental in US politics.

 

I have no evidence for you.

 

I understand the essential differences between the Democratic and Republican parties.  I'm from Canada, not Jupiter. ;)

 

I also understand that the state gov't may not want to look into voter fraud if it is not in their interest to do so.  But it certainly would be in the interest of Republicans, both state and national, to establish some evidence of this widely-claimed fraud.  And yet it doesn't appear to exist.  So isn't the most logical explanation that voter fraud is not nearly as big a problem as you have chosen to believe?

 

Do you think there is widespread fraud in presidential elections, too?  Because in that case you know for sure that people have been looking for evidence.

 

 

[cubsfan]

Of course it's in the interests of Republicans to establish voter fraud - but it can't happen - because the voter fraud is being done legally

and Republicans have no legislative power to change it. CA and ILL have been Democratically controlled for more years than I can remember.

 

Do I think illegal immigrants are voting in Presidential elections?  Yes, I do - but only in those states that make it very easy to do so.

Most states have very tight voter registration laws - like - you have to prove you are a US citizen - that's a novel concept - just not in

places like IL and CA. Most of Middle America actually respects the rule of law.

[DTEJD1997]

Hey all:

 

Just to chime in on the voter fraud...

 

There is most certainly voter fraud going on...there is simply no doubt to that.

 

The real question is "how much" is going on.

 

One of the problems with investigating voter fraud is that if it is successful, there is virtually no record or evidence.

 

Sometimes though, there are some tell tale signs...

 

For instance, more votes than registered voters in a district.

 

OR

 

A 100% or 99.9% vote for a certain candidate through districts.  There were reports of this happening for Obama in minority districts in OH & PA.  No doubt Obama would carry the vote, win, and WIN BIG.  HOWEVER, you can't tell me that Mitt Romney would not get even get 1/2 of 1% of the vote in a district?  That somebody (elderly) might get confused and vote for the "wrong" person?  That out of several thousand black voters, there is NOT even 1 Republican voter?  That Obama would outscore Romney 19,000+ to zero?  I think these margins were even greater than what Saddam Hussein got when he was in charge of Iraq.

 

Please see:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20121112_In_59_Philadelphia_voting_wards__Mitt_Romney_got_zero_votes.html?arc404=true

 

In Detroit, which may be arguably more "black" than Philadelphia, Hillary got about 96% of the vote compared to about 3% for Trump.  Pretty lopsided results...but maybe?

 

 

OR

 

In the 2016 election, many districts in Michigan could not be recounted because there were problems with the ballots.  Please see:

 

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016/12/18/detroit-ballots-vote-recount-election-stein/95570866/

 

Of course, everybody in charge of elections and part of the establishment say it is human error, statistical problems, machine malfunction, etc.  NEVER VOTER FRAUD.

Of course, that is pretty much exactly what you would expect them to say/do.

 

As for illegals voting, there are MILLIONS of them in the country.  There is simply NO WAY that NONE of them voted.  Now was it 1 in a million, 1 in a 100,000, or 1 in a 100?

 

So I would argue that there is most definitely voter fraud going on.  To the extent that it exists, is it enough to change outcomes?  Hard to say.

[Parsad]

Of course it's in the interests of Republicans to establish voter fraud - but it can't happen - because the voter fraud is being done legally

and Republicans have no legislative power to change it. CA and ILL have been Democratically controlled for more years than I can remember.

 

Do I think illegal immigrants are voting in Presidential elections?  Yes, I do - but only in those states that make it very easy to do so.

Most states have very tight voter registration laws - like - you have to prove you are a US citizen - that's a novel concept - just not in

places like IL and CA. Most of Middle America actually respects the rule of law.

 

I agree 100% with Cubsfan that illegal immigrants should not have the ability to participate as voters in government elections...whether they are Federal, State or Municipal. 

 

That being said, all of the major intelligence organizations in the U.S., including CIA, NSA, FBI, Director of National Intelligence, House Intelligence, Senate Intelligence, Justice Department, and Department of Homeland Security all say that Russia is influencing voting in the U.S.  I'm sure Cubsfan would agree 100% with the President enacting any and all powers to combat this. 

 

Cheers!

[fareastwarriors]

What is the solution?

[Investor20]

Obama himself said his campaign was hacked during 2008 elections.  But he also said everyone is getting hacked. 

 

Why Trump is being investigated in 2018 for something that is happening since 2008?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/us/politics/29obama.text.html

 

"But between August and October, hackers gained access to emails and a range of campaign files, from policy position papers to travel plans. And we worked closely with the CIA -- with the FBI and the Secret Service and hired security consultants to restore the security of our systems."

 

Instead of focusing on this:

 

"In short, America's economic prosperity in the 21st century will depend on cybersecurity."

 

or this:

 

"Yet we know that cyber intruders have probed our electrical grid and that in other countries cyber attacks have plunged entire cities into darkness."

 

or this:

 

"It's been estimated that last year alone cyber criminals stole intellectual property from businesses worldwide worth up to $1 trillion."

[Parsad]

Obama himself said his campaign was hacked during 2008 elections.  But he also said everyone is getting hacked. 

 

Why Trump is being investigated in 2018 for something that is happening since 2008?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/us/politics/29obama.text.html

 

"But between August and October, hackers gained access to emails and a range of campaign files, from policy position papers to travel plans. And we worked closely with the CIA -- with the FBI and the Secret Service and hired security consultants to restore the security of our systems."

 

Instead of focusing on this:

 

"In short, America's economic prosperity in the 21st century will depend on cybersecurity."

 

or this:

 

"Yet we know that cyber intruders have probed our electrical grid and that in other countries cyber attacks have plunged entire cities into darkness."

 

or this:

 

"It's been estimated that last year alone cyber criminals stole intellectual property from businesses worldwide worth up to $1 trillion."

 

Trump isn't being investigated for his campaign or Hillary's campaign being hacked, but that his campaign committee may have facilitated, organized or conducted meetings with Russian affiliates to influence elections.  Cheers!