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Russia Investigation.


doughishere
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LOL. More of the same. They might as well indict some Somali pirates as well. Little use of anything and a waste of resources to throw out indictments for people you'll never bring to justice. Unless they think Putin will extradite these agents...

 

Basically just more noise to justify the massive waste of time and millions of dollars this shit show has been.

 

I wonder when we will appoint the second special counsel to investigate mainstream media meddling in the election? After that, maybe investigate U.S. meddling in foreign elections...

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LOL. More of the same. They might as well indict some Somali pirates as well. Little use of anything and a waste of resources to throw out indictments for people you'll never bring to justice. Unless they think Putin will extradite these agents...

 

Basically just more noise to justify the massive waste of time and millions of dollars this shit show has been.

 

I wonder when we will appoint the second special counsel to investigate mainstream media meddling in the election? After that, maybe investigate U.S. meddling in foreign elections...

 

Indictments. AYNTK. Forget your tribe, follow the facts. The indictment absolutely alleges involvement by Americans affiliated with the campaign.

 

I don't doubt there were. Many politicians are corrupt. This shouldn't be news to anyone. What's absurd is the extent to which this drags on and becomes an excuse for all the whining and protesting. It's completely blown out of proportion. ABC deliberately withholds, waits for the opportune moment, and then leaks a tape hoping to sabotage the Trump campaign. Russia leaks stolen emails. Any half intelligent person can think for themselves. So anyone who was "swayed" or "influenced" by any third party material(foreign or domestic), that's there own choice.

 

It's just kind of ludicrous that this "investigation" has dragged on for this long, cost in excess of $20 million, and the only highlights so far are basically indicting a bunch of people who likely have never, nor will ever step foot on US soil, getting Manafort for basically just being a scum bag(dating back to 1984 at that. I suppose this is when the Trump campaign started?), Michael Flynn lying(which doesn't happen if there is no investigation), and some huge deal about whether or not Trump screwed a porn star...

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This will go on forever my friend.

 

This is due to people like Doughishere who have not digested yet the loss of their own and more corrupt candidate: Hillary Clinton.

 

But, hang on Doughishere, you got 6 1/2 more years to endure!

 

Cardboard

 

 

Cardboard, with due repect, not your "election loss" indigestion thingy again, I am afraid people like you will always remain who you were. For people who don't even know what's been lost by the election of Trump and what damages he has caused to the US & world, I suppose, they are the ones who should love to endure the years with King Trump when he finally reigns after 6 1/2 years.

 

 

 

 

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I am still trying to understand a lot of things going on right now. I appreciate people taking the time to post on topics that are important to them. Do I read every topic? Nope. Only those that are of interest to me. Do I filter what I read? Of course. So much to learn. So please keep the posts and source material coming (from all perspectives) :-)

 

One question I am trying to answer is why Trump and his staff are coming after allies (Germany, Canada etc) so hard. And at the same time he appears very pro Russia. I still have no idea why this is the case. Germany is not perfect (or Canada). But to look at Russia more favourable than Germany makes no sense to me based on the facts as I understand them. I still remember the meeting Trump had with Russia shortly after he was elected; it was a complete shocker (it looked to me like a love in). Pretty much every encounter he has had with Germany has been the opposite (quite aggressive and confrontational). Like I said, there are things I clearly do not understand so I need to keep reading and learning... my past experience is at some point the picture will start to finally make some sense :-)

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Lawfare: https://www.lawfareblog.com/russia-indictment-20-what-make-muellers-hacking-indictment

"While the indictment does not charge any American with specific criminal conduct, it does describe conduct by Americans that, depending on further factual development, raises potentially serious questions."

 

 

 

Trump this Morning: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1018074723140427776

 

Trump Meeting with Putin: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44830065

 

 

 

Roger Stone tells CNN he does not believe he is the unnamed person in the indictment: “My contact with the campaign in 2016 was Donald Trump. I was not in regular contact with campaign officials.”

H/t Diogenes -

 

 

Roger Stone: I probably am the person in the indictment.

 

 

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I am still trying to understand a lot of things going on right now. I appreciate people taking the time to post on topics that are important to them. Do I read every topic? Nope. Only those that are of interest to me. Do I filter what I read? Of course. So much to learn. So please keep the posts and source material coming (from all perspectives) :-)

 

One question I am trying to answer is why Trump and his staff are coming after allies (Germany, Canada etc) so hard. And at the same time he appears very pro Russia. I still have no idea why this is the case. Germany is not perfect (or Canada). But to look at Russia more favourable than Germany makes no sense to me based on the facts as I understand them. I still remember the meeting Trump had with Russia shortly after he was elected; it was a complete shocker (it looked to me like a love in). Pretty much every encounter he has had with Germany has been the opposite (quite aggressive and confrontational). Like I said, there are things I clearly do not understand so I need to keep reading and learning... my past experience is at some point the picture will start to finally make some sense :-)

 

What I really want to know, why aren`t you connecting the russian dots in germany.  If germany wanted to stick it to russia they would be reducing their dependence on Russian energy.  Trump is directly calling them on that.  You can`t have this conversation without considering that.  You can literally bring russia to its knees if the EU would just shut that energy tap off.  Not to ignore mueller but lets put this in comparison.  At the end of the day trump got elected because clinton messed up and he grabbed the middle class vote with MAGA.  I dont know the influence of the Russian meddling there but I really dont think that moved the needle.  Meanwhile you have entire EU talking but yet doing nothing to actually hurt Putin.  If you really truly cared about Russia, that would be your focus.

 

ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS STOP BUYING ENERGY FROM RUSSIA

 

 

 

 

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no_free_lunch,

 

As reply to your proposal, I refer to a post by Spekulatius in the tariffs topic:

 

Spekulatius has a good point about America's desire to extend and maintain its influence abroad.  Since we're hemorrhaging red ink perhaps it's time to reconsider our role in the world.  Here is a link to an article on why we should consider not protecting Europe any longer.  https://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/why-america-still-defending-europe-24957

 

Europeans don’t feel threatened. Right or wrong, but that’s what it is. US is free to pull their troops back, which they have been doing anyways over time. As long as  the US remains in the NATO, they would be obligated to help any nation within NATO that gets attacked, based on the NATO contract. If the US leaves the NATO, then that obligation ceases to exist.

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Guest Schwab711

Not to ignore mueller

 

You are ignoring Mueller by focusing on the fake problem of the day. Trump illegally conspired. It's plain as day. Some of the crimes happened on national TV.

 

The pipeline deal has already been brought up ad nauseam over the past 6-12 months by German politicans and NATO allies. Trump is not ballsy for bringing this up, he's just causing problems.

 

Why the hell do people keep listening to Trump when all he's done is lie to you? It's like an abused wife or stockholm syndrome. I don't say that lightly.

 

The day before the Trump Tower meeting (the first day after the meeting date was confirmed!!), DCLeaks is set up to distribute DNC/DCCC/Padesta emails. The Trump Tower meeting happens the next day and they claim nothing happened during the meeting!?!?

 

Exactly one week later Rep McCarthy and Rep Ryan talk about RU dividing Ukraine against itself (which Manafort was presented as the mastermind of in his 40+ count indictment). Ryan called is "maniacal". McCarthy, one week after DCLeaks, said he thought "Putin paid Trump".

 

Dutch intel watched in real time as the DNC servers were hacked. They sent this info to the CIA directly (I think we went there but whatever). It was included in an indictment!! Dutch intel was willing to burn an absolutely huge honeypot to help our country and because of politics, some folks are like "well, what about those data transfer speeds?" The math on the data transfer speeds were wrong. The guy who wrote the blog ended up removing himself from his original opinion. US IC received the feeds so they could watch the dang act as it happened! Trump knew this! He still misled you about it. Now we know he was lying all this time and people will still believe his next bullshit comment.

 

Why don't you want answers from McConnell about why he prevented Obama from doing anything about this? Why don't you want answers from your party about why they nominated a candidate that was so obviously breaking the law and conspiring with a foreign adversary?

 

Why the hell does anyone still trust and support Trump? It's maniacal that some news shows tell listeners to hate Democrats/liberals/leftys multiple times an hour. That they are the cause of everything. It's a sick feedback loop.

 

 

Edit: Finally we also get some reprieve on the 'polls' issue. From the indictment we know, on July 6th, Julian Assange estimated Trump's odds of winning at about 25%. 538/Nate Silver reported 22.4% that day. NYT was at ~10% (using only national polls - little did they know that RU had just released the detailed DNC voter analytics one month prior. This is how RU 'meddled' in a few key Rust Belt states.).

 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

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John,

 

When I read your post, I am drawn to some sad conclusions.  Europe is not concerned by Russia so will not build adequate defense.  For the same reason the EU countries feel free to trade with Russia as they please.  If they are wrong, and Russia does violate their sovereignty they will just fall back on the US. 

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Guest Schwab711

John,

 

When I read your post, I am drawn to some sad conclusions.  Europe is not concerned by Russia so will not build adequate defense.  For the same reason the EU countries feel free to trade with Russia as they please.  If they are wrong, and Russia does violate their sovereignty they will just fall back on the US.

 

The US trades with Russia everyday. An example of that trade is the fact that folks here are talking about buying Sberbank stock. If we didn't trade with them, it would be illegal to own that stock.

 

The point of sanctions is we don't want to cut-off the entire country. It's to punish Putin and alter his behavior. Same with Europe.

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Schwab, I don`t think that Russia is a fake problem of the day. I only bring up Russia because this entire thread is about Russia and the US.

 

I think the dems made a strategic error by inflating the Russian threat.  It forces people to look in detail at how countries and parties respond to Russia.  What I see is that the EU really doesnt care.  Everything the Europeans do indicates this and apparently they will tell you this too if you just ask them.  The Democrats didn`t really care about Russia before the election, it always seemed to be the Republicans pushing for defense spending to Ukraine.

 

If the threat is Russia and Trump is colluding with Russia then I will believe you when I see evidence that he is helping them.  However, in reality the US stands up to Russia and is doing what it can to counter them.

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An oldie but a goodie.

 

With the peace process stalled and violence escalating in Ukraine, a bipartisan coalition in Congress is defying President Obama and European allies by pressing the administration to provide weapons to the embattled nation.

..

So far, the Obama administration has refused to provide lethal aid, fearing that it would only escalate the bloodshed and give President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia a pretext for further incursions.

..

Legislation to authorize lethal military aid for Ukraine has gone to the White House before, but Mr. Obama has not acted on it. And while this bill authorizes the weapons it cannot compel the administration to send them. The measure is largely meant to put renewed pressure on the White House.

 

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who has championed the effort to send arms to Ukraine for more than a year, dismissed the fears that it would worsen the conflict and unravel the international coalition.

 

I can see if you would agree with Obama on this, I dont want to debate the specifics.  However, it is madness to go from this stance to Republicans being pro Russian.  Before the election Dems were concerned the republicans would start ww3 and then suddenly they accuse them of being in bed with the enemy.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

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Guest Schwab711

This was a huge issue during the election:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/30/us/politics/harry-reid-russia-tampering-election-fbi.html

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/10/30/harry-reid-says-comey-may-have-broken-the-law-by-disclosing-new-clinton-emails/?utm_term=.2f61a679e3a3

 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/07/24/wikileaks-clinton-campaign-manager-robby-mook-intv-tapper-sotu.cnn

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-warned-trump-2016-russians-would-try-infiltrate-his-campaign-n830596

 

https://themoscowproject.org/collusion/gang-12-receives-intel-briefings/

 

https://themoscowproject.org/collusion/trump-defends-putin-democrats-putting-emails/

 

 

From Clinton:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/us/politics/hillary-clinton-russia.html

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-accuses-trump-campaign-of-helping-russia-2016-election-2017-9

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-debate-russia-idUSKCN12K0E7

 

It's worth noting that during this time, Dems were the minority party in Congress, partisan polarization was bad, and by 10/30, Trump had already started using the phrase 'the election is rigged' (which he had rigged). If Dems had provided evidence during the campaign then there would have been absolute hell.

 

Edit: Looking at the URL headlines, I forgot how much the media downplayed Trump/Russia at the time. It's weird looking back at this.

 

 

 

Your quote doesn't describe that WW3 assumption at all. Sounds like Dems worried arming Ukraine would incite further violence. Republicans (pre-Manafort/Trump) thought arming would prevent that violence. Both seem like reasonable opinions.

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An oldie but a goodie.

 

With the peace process stalled and violence escalating in Ukraine, a bipartisan coalition in Congress is defying President Obama and European allies by pressing the administration to provide weapons to the embattled nation.

..

So far, the Obama administration has refused to provide lethal aid, fearing that it would only escalate the bloodshed and give President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia a pretext for further incursions.

..

Legislation to authorize lethal military aid for Ukraine has gone to the White House before, but Mr. Obama has not acted on it. And while this bill authorizes the weapons it cannot compel the administration to send them. The measure is largely meant to put renewed pressure on the White House.

 

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who has championed the effort to send arms to Ukraine for more than a year, dismissed the fears that it would worsen the conflict and unravel the international coalition.

 

I can see if you would agree with Obama on this, I dont want to debate the specifics.  However, it is madness to go from this stance to Republicans being pro Russian.  Before the election Dems were concerned the republicans would start ww3 and then suddenly they accuse them of being in bed with the enemy.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/world/europe/defying-obama-many-in-congress-press-to-arm-ukraine.html

 

Good, were in agreement that its important to get to the bottom of the election rigging regardless of partisan differences.

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Schwab,

 

Ukraine is sitting there asking for military assistance.  They have Russian troops and equipment in their country fighting against them.  If anyone is hurt by the escalation it is them.  You then have Obama saying he knows better and actually they don`t need any weapons.  It only makes sense that he would make that call if he is worried about things escalating beyond ukraine, which without too much hyperbole could be called ww3.

 

I get it, it was a tough call to make and he did what he thought was in the US best interests.  However, the republicans saw US best interests as standing up to Russia.  To go from that to saying they collaborate, that`s quite a leap.

 

Then there is the fact that Trump is pushing EU to move away from Russian energy source.  Maybe you don`t agree, maybe it is too hard ON RUSSIA, but that isn`t something someone pro kremlin does.

 

There is also Trump pushing EU to bolster their military, again not something you do when you are owned by them.

 

It doesn`t add up.

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I think more so what is funny is that this really didn't effect anyone and yet everyone is so up in arms. Let's say Trump did work with Russia to expose dirt on his political opponent, does this really effect anyone? Does it mean that Hillary didn't do those things? That the DNC didn't write all those awful emails and rig the election for HRC?

 

I get it, what he may have done is against the law. So that's a no-no. Yet the same people(mostly liberals) so outraged blatantly justify breaking the law ALL THE TIME with regard to immigrant, anti-police, violence against people with different views, etc. Did any of you get physically hurt by Trump/Russia? Did it cost you money? Did you lose your home or have a family member harmed? I know I still get up in the morning and have the same day to day routine as I did under Obama. The false outrage is absurd and people can't seem to see that they are just being played by Democrats looking to create distractions and road blocks for the Trump administration. Nothing more to it.

 

Also as a side note, I find it funny that the FBI, led by idiots like Comey, Mccabe and Strzok, couldn't find all of the Clinton emails. But Russia could.

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