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The End of DACA


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I understand the problems with illegal immigration in the U.S. and these issues/flaws have festered through multiple presidential terms, but I have to say that the current planned termination of DACA with no "American" solution for these young people is disheartening.  I don't recognize my neighbors to the south anymore.  They were children when they came here...why are they paying for their parent's sins.  Can Trump imagine his children or grand-children paying for his sins?  Cheers!

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Very difficult question.

 

Definition of the American Dream: The belief that everyone in the US has the chance to be successful and happy if they work hard.

 

There's sometimes a tortuous route between being "everyone" and "citizen".

 

Visiting Ellis Island a few years back, and Angel Island (San Francisco) recently, I realize that there may be a price to pay to reach the Promised Land.

 

But what price?

 

Of course, the American Dream is no longer what it used to be.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/upshot/the-transformation-of-the-american-dream.html

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I really have to ask how much of this is due to the different systems of immigration.  The US has a family based system (which I think is causing the issues & the incentives to abuse) versus the economic system of the rest of the world.  What is the system in Canada?  Can any family member become a citizen regardless if they can economically support themselves?  I think all folks are asking for is an economic based system to prevent the abuse, not an unreasonable request.  I think this is more of a move to get Congress to pass something & work together to get it done which is the way it should have been done originally.  Hopefully between this & hurricane aid, Congress can get something done on a bi-partisan basis.

 

Packer

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A fake issue courtesy mainstream media and Democrat's echo chambers. Its amazing how the Democrats/media tie some issues (like illegal immigration) to empathy/kindness and want the government's action when they can't win on the legal basis. But some like abortion has to be left alone to choice.

 

There are two elements to DACA. One is the issue of these children(although the oldest one is 36 yr old, another inconvenient fact ignored) who were brought here and the other is the illegal act committed by their parents/guardian. If I rob a bank to feed my child , that doesn't mean that both of us should get reprieve. The Republican's solution is fair. Give the children the legal status but make sure that the illegal act is not encouraged. Democrats/Media aided by the cheap labor capitalists only wants to focus on the former. And anyone who wants to support both is termed as racist/cruel/small minded. No wonder Trump won. Both parties are hypocritical in their approach but Trump stands out. He is very clear on these issues and takes a firm stand. I am no fan of Trump but I do think his supporters must be very happy that they voted for someone who is actually delivering on the promises.

 

 

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Guest longinvestor

If beating around the bush is a waste of time, just Google The browning of America, and how this has loomed larger and larger for over three decades. And the reaction less and less subdued. What we are witnessing both in EU and NA is the visceral response to the reality that even electoral outcomes stand to change, not just who picks our tomatoes, cuts the grass or writes code. The change is permanent, immigration laws will adapt to the reality.

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I understand the problems with illegal immigration in the U.S. and these issues/flaws have festered through multiple presidential terms, but I have to say that the current planned termination of DACA with no "American" solution for these young people is disheartening.  I don't recognize my neighbors to the south anymore.  They were children when they came here...why are they paying for their parent's sins.  Can Trump imagine his children or grand-children paying for his sins?  Cheers!

 

Is that fair to legal immigrants who have done everything right and paying tax every single year and still patiently waiting for green cards after many many years?

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A fake issue courtesy mainstream media and Democrat's echo chambers. Its amazing how the Democrats/media tie some issues (like illegal immigration) to empathy/kindness and want the government's action when they can't win on the legal basis. But some like abortion has to be left alone to choice.

 

There are two elements to DACA. One is the issue of these children(although the oldest one is 36 yr old, another inconvenient fact ignored) who were brought here and the other is the illegal act committed by their parents/guardian. If I rob a bank to feed my child , that doesn't mean that both of us should get reprieve. The Republican's solution is fair. Give the children the legal status but make sure that the illegal act is not encouraged. Democrats/Media aided by the cheap labor capitalists only wants to focus on the former. And anyone who wants to support both is termed as racist/cruel/small minded. No wonder Trump won. Both parties are hypocritical in their approach but Trump stands out. He is very clear on these issues and takes a firm stand. I am no fan of Trump but I do think his supporters must be very happy that they voted for someone who is actually delivering on the promises.

 

The better metaphor is, if you rob a bank and stuff the proceeds in a trust set up for your kids, why should the kids have to give the money back and pay for their parents sins? The truth is, it was never theirs to begin with. Same goes for citizenship. Just because they've been here, doesn't mean they should have been and doesn't mean that at some point the chickens don't come home to roost. Sorry.

 

Immigration is so head scratching in regards to how not everybody is on the same page. It's black and white. There is an outlined process. It amazes me how many people sympathize with crooks and law breakers and excuse their behaviors when there is a very easy and simply path to do it the right way.

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I understand the problems with illegal immigration in the U.S. and these issues/flaws have festered through multiple presidential terms, but I have to say that the current planned termination of DACA with no "American" solution for these young people is disheartening.  I don't recognize my neighbors to the south anymore.  They were children when they came here...why are they paying for their parent's sins.  Can Trump imagine his children or grand-children paying for his sins?  Cheers!

 

Is that fair to legal immigrants who have done everything right and paying tax every single year and still patiently waiting for green cards after many many years?

 

My uncle married a wonderful women from the Philippines.  They had known each other for many years.  It took them a while to get married...filling out TONS of forms & paperwork...lot of government interviews...a lot of hassle, A LOT OF MONEY.  Then it took even longer and even more money for them to legally bring her children over to the USA.  The children were separated from their mother for over a year!

 

HOWEVER, they did everything legally, "by the book".  It took years and TENS of thousands of dollars.  This was/is a VERY substantial amount of money for my uncle.

 

What fools they were!  Just should have gone to Mexico or Canada and come across the border.

 

Can my uncle and his family get a refund?  What about others? 

 

Why are there two sets of laws in the USA?

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"He is very clear on these issues and takes a firm stand. I am no fan of Trump but I do think his supporters must be very happy that they voted for someone who is actually delivering on the promises."

 

Will stick to the issue (immigration) especially with the next post coming and I don't know the answer to this specific question but, respectfully, would like to add the following as I follow the unique diplomacy being deployed to Southeast Asia.

 

With DACA, I find that President Trump has shown unusual caution.

When discussing this issue before on several different occasions, he has said, in parallel to the Republican program statements, sympathetic remarks in regards to the DACA people: "good students", "great people", "The DACA situation is a very difficult thing for me as I love these kids, I love kids, I have kids and grand kids". Atypically, he even seemed to have difficulty reaching a decision on the specific stand to take.

 

To show political sensitivity for such a hard question is actually refreshing.

 

I have always been a contrarian.

 

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Packer16,

 

"What is the system in Canada?"

 

You talkin' to me?

 

It is an honor. I was hoping for somebody else to take the helm but I can act as the Canadian member de service.

Disclosure: did some basic research to bridge the gaps but incomplete and possibly unsatisfactory info.

 

Yes, in Canada, emphasis is given to economic criteria. In general 60-70% come through the economic sub-program, 20-25% through the family program and about 10% because of humanitarian reasons. "Talented" immigrants can be admitted to the country without having a job offer.

 

Canada, in a way, perhaps more so than the US, is a land of immigrants. Aren't we all immigrants?

 

According to international independent agencies, Canada has "attractive" policies for workers and their families, especially for "highly skilled" migrants.

 

Find a link below which is relatively well balanced but may be a bit too upbeat as there are some nagging issues that tend to attract media attention intermittently.

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/01/26/511625609/for-a-stark-contrast-to-u-s-immigration-policy-try-canada

 

Personal opinion (not worth very much):

-Canada seems to have done a better job with immigration policies but the difference may be less than stated.

-A difference is that policies have been evolving and compromises have been reached.

-The major difference is the problem of illegal immigrants which is minuscule compared to the US.

 

Part of me would like to say that the relative absence of an illegal immigrant problem in Canada is due to moral superiority or a more noble gene pool but humility forces me to say that the essential reason is geographic (yeah that wall prone area).

 

In closing, a problem that is deteriorating with no end in sight should perhaps be given due consideration, even in political circles (comment not related to the finger on the red button escalation).

 

BTW, shalab is considering military annexation of Canada, so after I respond to his last posts on a related topic, I may go quiet for a while.

 

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"He is very clear on these issues and takes a firm stand. I am no fan of Trump but I do think his supporters must be very happy that they voted for someone who is actually delivering on the promises."

 

Will stick to the issue (immigration) especially with the next post coming and I don't know the answer to this specific question but, respectfully, would like to add the following as I follow the unique diplomacy being deployed to Southeast Asia.

 

Fair enough, that comment may be over the top but as someone who likes Trump's immigration and foreign policy , I don't quite agree with you on N Korea.

 

Common sense tells me that if a certain policy hasn't worked for years, it will not work in the future. Obama (and to a certain extent Bush) tried appeasement and failed miserably. The policy of appeasement gave Kim Jong the missiles that can reach the mainland. Matter of time before he can fit the nukes on it and extract even bigger concessions. He needs to be stopped.

 

I believe that China can solve this problem but its not an honest broker. North Korea can be economically  crippled should China (or handful of Chinese companies that do business with it) refuse to play ball. But China's  zero sum strategic imperative combined with the historical paranoia of its neighbors overrides any urgency to contain a crackpot who goes around threatening annihilation of his opponents. The only way to bring both of them on the table is to promise the consequences that will far surpass any contingencies they may have planned. That's the Trump card , no pun.

 

Trump's bluster seems threatening to a rational person but there is a method to his madness. He is psychologically scoping out his opponents. Act rationally and he'll defuse but if you engage he'll take you to the brink. Not a good place to be in when he is carrying the biggest stick.

 

 

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If a dad and his son sneak into a soccer game and get caught, should only the dad be forced to leave the game?

 

If a father and his son break into my house and the father is arrested, do I have to raise his son?

 

I understand and empathize with the children whose parents illegally brought them to the U.S., but the situation that the children find themselves in is their parents' fault, not mine.

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Guest MikeTheCannon

I am absolutely dumbfounded by the level of cruelty and callousness shown on this topic. These kids have done nothing wrong. They are well integrated and productive members of society. Where's the justice in kicking them out? And what's the benefit? This all seems like a knee jerk reaction that lacks any basis in justice, fairness, or compassion.

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I am absolutely dumbfounded by the level of cruelty and callousness shown on this topic. These kids have done nothing wrong. They are well integrated and productive members of society. Where's the justice in kicking them out? And what's the benefit? This all seems like a knee jerk reaction that lacks any basis in justice, fairness, or compassion.

 

You kick them out, out of fairness to those who have done the whole immigration thing the right way, and out of respect for, idk, the law??? So right there is fairness and justice. Heck its getting to a point where I firmly believe if it were up to most we'd just abolish the Constitution and throw out any laws. It's unreal.

 

Say I take my family, and sneak into a baseball game. Screw everyone else who paid for their ticket. Mine are free. x5 tickets. But hey, I'm not bothering anyone, I'm spending at the concessions, and my kids are innocent so why is there anything wrong. The whole thing is OK? Right...

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Guest MikeTheCannon

I am absolutely dumbfounded by the level of cruelty and callousness shown on this topic. These kids have done nothing wrong. They are well integrated and productive members of society. Where's the justice in kicking them out? And what's the benefit? This all seems like a knee jerk reaction that lacks any basis in justice, fairness, or compassion.

 

You kick them out, out of fairness to those who have done the whole immigration thing the right way, and out of respect for, idk, the law??? So right there is fairness and justice. Heck its getting to a point where I firmly believe if it were up to most we'd just abolish the Constitution and throw out any laws. It's unreal.

 

Laws are tools used to arrive at justice. They aren't justice in and of themselves. The codification of an unjust action doesn't spontaneous make it just. America has a dark history of confusing the two, so let's not confuse the two.

 

And no doubt those immigrating the legal way might be upset but using proportional and measured responses is how a civil society conducts itself. Destroying the livelihoods of 800,000 innocent people to ensure that those legally immigrating aren't annoyed seems absolutely insane.

 

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Some of the comments here are so callous.  They scream, “This doesn’t impact me or anyone I know so I don’t care.”  Reminds me of the guy in my office who wants to attack North Korea.  He’s all for it until I ask how much he’s personally willing to contribute or if he’d gladly volunteer to put his son or daughter in harms way.  Equating robbing a bank or sneaking into a sports venue to someone coming to the US for a better life is absurd.  If this is all about law and order, many must still be angered by those who broke laws escaping Europe during WWII, or those escaping the Middle East and North Africa today. 

 

Now that I’ve surely stirred up some hate, I must say this issue is being oversold by the left and right.  The left wants to create the narrative that ICE will be breaking down doors and deporting model “citizens” in droves.  The right wants to sell the idea that these “criminals” will face justice.  It’s just not going to happen.  The money, man power and public sentiment are not there for this to happen.  Trump said as much today, something to the effect of it won’t be a law enforcement priority.  Although Trump's move was purely political, I’m somewhat optimistic that this policy change will force congress’s hand to finally pass some type of bi-partisan immigration reform. 

 

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The idea that citizenship is analogous to attending a sports game is absurd. Sports games last a few hours, then you go home. The problem with deporting DACA recipients is that most know of no home other than the United States. Sports games are for entertainment, attending them is a completely optional leisure activity. Many DACA recipients came to the United States to flee violence and persecution, their lives were at stake. Commenters are bringing up this idea that attendees should have 'bought seats' for this sports game. The vast majority of people who are United States citizens are only so because they were born in the U.S. or their parents are U.S. citizens. People do not choose where and to whom they are born, yet some commenters are confusing winning the geographical lottery for something that is earned or paid for. Every serious analysis suggests that DACA recipients contribute positively to the U.S. economy, as every generation of new immigrants has. Sports games are held in stadiums that have a maximum capacity. The United States has a theoretical maximum population capacity, but the country is obviously nowhere close to reaching that.

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The idea that citizenship is analogous to attending a sports game is absurd. Sports games last a few hours, then you go home. The problem with deporting DACA recipients is that most know of no home other than the United States. Sports games are for entertainment, attending them is a completely optional leisure activity. Many DACA recipients came to the United States to flee violence and persecution, their lives were at stake. Commenters are bringing up this idea that attendees should have 'bought seats' for this sports game. The vast majority of people who are United States citizens are only so because they were born in the U.S. or their parents are U.S. citizens. People do not choose where and to whom they are born, yet some commenters are confusing winning the geographical lottery for something that is earned or paid for. Every serious analysis suggests that DACA recipients contribute positively to the U.S. economy, as every generation of new immigrants has. Sports games are held in stadiums that have a maximum capacity. The United States has a theoretical maximum population capacity, but the country is obviously nowhere close to reaching that.

 

It also has to do with the simple premise of following and enforcing the laws of the land. As someone previously, and incorrectly asserted, no you don't send them back to make people who did it the right way happy, you do it because if you create a system where you reward breaking the law, no one will follow it.

 

As a few members here have already stated, the people who followed the law spend tons of time and money doing so. So excusing that because we "feel bad" or whatever, is not only insulting to those folks, but sends a horrid sign to anyone else looking to enter. Who in their right mind would spend years of time doing it the right way and tens of thousands of dollars as well, when you can just run across and then bank on some pity card or sob story life jacket being thrown your way? Shit, the next leg of this whole thing will be, "we can't deport the innocent kids, but we also shouldnt deport their parents because then, OMG, they'll be kids without parents"... Theres no end to it. If you don't enter the stadium with a valid ticket, you don't deserve a seat. Save your money, pay for your ticket, and then you will be welcomed with open arms and enjoy all the benefits and perks of those who are here legally.

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Some of the comments here are so callous.  They scream, “This doesn’t impact me or anyone I know so I don’t care.”  Reminds me of the guy in my office who wants to attack North Korea.  He’s all for it until I ask how much he’s personally willing to contribute or if he’d gladly volunteer to put his son or daughter in harms way.  Equating robbing a bank or sneaking into a sports venue to someone coming to the US for a better life is absurd.  If this is all about law and order, many must still be angered by those who broke laws escaping Europe during WWII, or those escaping the Middle East and North Africa today. 

 

Now that I’ve surely stirred up some hate, I must say this issue is being oversold by the left and right.  The left wants to create the narrative that ICE will be breaking down doors and deporting model “citizens” in droves.  The right wants to sell the idea that these “criminals” will face justice.  It’s just not going to happen.  The money, man power and public sentiment are not there for this to happen.  Trump said as much today, something to the effect of it won’t be a law enforcement priority.  Although Trump's move was purely political, I’m somewhat optimistic that this policy change will force congress’s hand to finally pass some type of bi-partisan immigration reform.

 

Except to many, if not most, it does. Who pays the hospital bills of these illegal folks? How about their schooling? Surely the taxpayer. What about the local contractor who can't stay in business because he can't compete with the next dude going to HD and picking up a half dozen workers for $500. Meanwhile that sucker is paying $15+ an hour, employment and healthcare taxes, etc hiring legal citizens. What a fool, right? The ripple effects are all over

 

Bottom line is if you ignore/disrespect the laws of the land you set a horrible precedent. Additionally, you create a burden for the people who do it the right way. Why, so you can make things easier/fairer/whatever for freeloaders? There are enough legal avenues to come to the US that there is no excuse IMO for any of this nonsense. This reminds me of the town I grew up in where kids who lived in the sh*tholes would shack up with a 3rd cousin and then use that address to attend the public schools. Yea, real fair to the folks paying $20,000 a year in property taxes to have students attend for free because his parents were dishonest. This is the same thing just on a larger scale.

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Reminds me of the guy in my office who wants to attack North Korea.  He’s all for it until I ask how much he’s personally willing to contribute or if he’d gladly volunteer to put his son or daughter in harms way. 

 

How about you follow your own principle and provide shelter,employment to an illegal alien. We'll see how committed you are to the cause. Its one thing to grandstand on the back of your fellow countrymen, the reality sets in when you face the consequences.

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It also has to do with the simple premise of following and enforcing the laws of the land. As someone previously, and incorrectly asserted, no you don't send them back to make people who did it the right way happy, you do it because if you create a system where you reward breaking the law, no one will follow it.

 

Immigration laws are already arbitrary. Up until January 2017, if you were a Cuban citizen and stepped foot on United States soil, you would be granted expedited legal permanent resident status. Should these Cubans be deported because they were legally favored over other lawful immigrants?

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Not that it does necessarily matter to anyone, I have been "wrestling" with this tough question.

 

Like any tough calls (from ethics to investment thesis analysis), it may be helpful to look at the issue from different perspectives and multiple dimensions.

 

Slow thinking and opportunistic action have been the modus operandi.

 

So, shared here is an element of objective information that may help some to crystallize an opinion.

 

Recently, in Canada, there came the 2016 Jordan Ruling from the Supreme Court. In a few words, the Ruling states that the case of a law offender should be handled and concluded within reasonable time, without unreasonable delay. Precise quantitative timelines are now prescribed.

 

---The Ruling has had immediate consequences as charges (some very significant) were dropped in many cases.

 

Note:

 

-implications for those who ended up with adverse judgements, in part, because they were counseled to proceed efficiently versus those who were in fact guilty but were free to go, in part, because their counsel was efficient in delaying procedures.

 

---The Ruling is considered to be a wake-up call to the Judicial System in terms of its organization and efficiency.

 

 

My understanding is that the Dream Act was initially introduced in Congress in 2001, followed a convoluted course and ended in the twilight zone around 2010.

 

My understanding is that the then President, through (---take your pick---) 1-“an exercise of prosecutorial discretion” or 2-“an inappropriate use of executive power”, DACA came along in 2012.

 

My understanding is that today is September 5, 2017 and the new deadline for Congress is March 5, 2018.

 

Not so simple after all.

 

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I would say that chaos is a word that has often been associated with Congress (apologies to American friends but it's Google's fault).

 

This is only speculation on my part, but my opinion is that President Trump is trying to somehow find a compromise on this exceptional issue.

 

Also, with laws, lines in the sand move slowly, but they move.

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